What's the common breeder guarantee on elbows?
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Thread: What's the common breeder guarantee on elbows?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    Default What's the common breeder guarantee on elbows?

    So I'm pretty sure the common guarantee on Hip is Passing grade at 24mts. This being (fair, Good, or Excellent), or not HD.

    But what are breeders doing with Elbows these days. Been seeing a few dogs come back with non-normal elbows. Are passing Elbows scores covered under the health guarantee?
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    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    Thought I would Chirp in Hunt'emUp,seeing as there are many Uk Retrievers on that side of the pond .
    Over here we have a Scoring system by number for Elbows and Hips . 0-0 being the Ultimate or your 'excellent' I would say ? with a sliding scale on hips with a combined score number for each hip or elbow . The mean average for the bread is taken from the total number of dogs Tested ,(BMA) so the gene pool in the US would obviously be bigger ,when you include them all ,including Show ,agility ,pet ,working,trials etc . In the UK we have an average of less than a combined score of 10 for hips in Labrador retriever for Field trial bred retrievers and an average of 0.01 for elbows in field trial bred retrievers .This average increases when the whole population is included to a UK average of 12 for hips and 2 for elbows (for all dogs actually tested and submitted to BVA)
    The caveat to this in the UK , is we can hip-score and elbow score (test) the dog when it is 12 months old ,unlike the US where 24 months is the norm ..I think ? ..therefore , less wear or proof in the field is less likely in a 12 month old dog than a 24 month old dog , and the usual variants of nurture/living conditions and terrain/expose etc .
    Elbows -- To be specific are more of a minefield ,depending on the variants listed above (imo) , sure know one thing ! ..If the dog ain't done nothing other than run around a flat field and done no jumping or had no ice on it's legs it will have a lower score than one from the same litter who has at 12 month old ,and if you keep testing for something you are destined to find it sooner or later .
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    In the US with OFA, you have “normal” or affected, no degrees.

    I warrant elbows like I do hips, normal at 24 months or my warranty goes into effect.

    Meredith

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    Senior Member Don Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt'EmUp View Post
    So I'm pretty sure the common guarantee on Hip is Passing grade at 24mts. This being (fair, Good, or Excellent), or not HD.

    But what are breeders doing with Elbows these days. Been seeing a few dogs come back with non-normal elbows. Are passing Elbows scores covered under the health guarantee?
    Unless it's in the contract provided by the breeder, there is no guarantee.
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    I have not seen any breeders offer it within their guarantee.

    To be honest I do not think breeders should even offer any hip or elbow guarantee as long as both parents have been tested and have good or better hips and normal elbows. There are too many outside contributors that can affect passing hips and elbows outside the breeders control. Even if the issue is totally genetic related, why should the bitch owner be responsible if they have done their part by verifying both parents have passing hips and elbows? I would never seek a refund for a pup I purchased if it did not receive passing hips or elbows and both parents had their clearances.
    Jake Greenwell

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    Senior Member IdahoLabs's Avatar
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    IMO... Elbows can be influenced more by environment and trauma than hips. By definition, elbow dysplasia in Labs is a *fragmented* coronoid process (FCP). There is a conformation component that makes it more likely to fracture, but at the end of the day, some level of trauma caused pieces to chip off into the joint, starting the process of developing osteoarthritis. It might be running down stairs or repeated jumping from the truck or an overweight dog or something totally different.

    All that said, I do not guarantee elbows because of the environmental component AND because people do breed dogs with non passing elbows AND because degree of elbow dysplasia per OFA does not correlate well with lameness or an inability to work. I know several dogs with QAA, FC AFC titles that did not pass OFA elbows. Essentially no one breeds non-passing hips. People do occasionally breed non passing elbows.
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    Senior Member Tobias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Greenwell View Post
    I have not seen any breeders offer it within their guarantee.

    To be honest I do not think breeders should even offer any hip or elbow guarantee as long as both parents have been tested and have good or better hips and normal elbows. There are too many outside contributors that can affect passing hips and elbows outside the breeders control. Even if the issue is totally genetic related, why should the bitch owner be responsible if they have done their part by verifying both parents have passing hips and elbows? I would never seek a refund for a pup I purchased if it did not receive passing hips or elbows and both parents had their clearances.

    I agree with this. If the breeder has done all they can to ensure the pedigree of the pups has the appropriate (and standard) health testing and certifications - and the buyer has also done their due diligence... the buyer should be happy with that and accept there is no guarantee of health beyond what the breeder has already done to give the pup the best possible chance of being physiologically healthy throughout their lives. Too much can happen environmentally after the pup leaves the breeder's home. I have heard horror stories of puppies being erroneously allowed to complete in activity that is not appropriate for the age/development of the pup.
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    Senior Member Rainmaker's Avatar
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    Few I know personally are even covering elbows in a breeder guarantee anymore. What Claire said about sums it up for me. OR someone waits until their bitch is pushing 4, gets QAA and suddenly decides they are going to breed her, does OFA, elbows are grade I, bitch has been pro trained and living on truck for years, never been symptomatic. Breeder is supposed to cover that? When both parents are normal elbows, passing hips, breeder has done their due diligence, what the owner does after they take pup home is beyond breeder's control. I think "guarantee" is a misnomer anyway, it's more like a warranty.
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    Senior Member Tobias's Avatar
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    I'd be curious to know if puppy guarantees on hips (from years ago) was the result of a marketing technique. Just one more reason for someone to choose litter A over litter B - all else being equal.

    In today's breeding of competition dogs - or higher end gun dogs - it would be unusual for someone to purchase a pup that did not come from parents with health clearances.

    That said - I did see a recent ad for a litter by an FC in which I could not find the OFA cerf report for the dog. And apparently people are using him as a stud and selling pups.
    The way I look at it, every dog is an opportunity to be a better trainer, and every day is a new day to be a better trainer to the same dog we trained yesterday.

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    Where is Lisa Van Loo when you need her? (Old timers will understand)

    It depends.

    Usually, sometimes you get a guarantee, sometimes you don't.

    I typically ask for one. Sometimes I get one, sometimes I don't.

    Sometimes the lack of a guarantee is a deal breaker for me. Sometimes it isn't.

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