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What's the common breeder guarantee on elbows?

9K views 24 replies 17 participants last post by  Bridget Bodine 
#1 ·
So I'm pretty sure the common guarantee on Hip is Passing grade at 24mts. This being (fair, Good, or Excellent), or not HD.

But what are breeders doing with Elbows these days. Been seeing a few dogs come back with non-normal elbows. Are passing Elbows scores covered under the health guarantee?
 
#2 ·
Thought I would Chirp in Hunt'emUp,seeing as there are many Uk Retrievers on that side of the pond .
Over here we have a Scoring system by number for Elbows and Hips . 0-0 being the Ultimate or your 'excellent' I would say ? with a sliding scale on hips with a combined score number for each hip or elbow . The mean average for the bread is taken from the total number of dogs Tested ,(BMA) so the gene pool in the US would obviously be bigger ,when you include them all ,including Show ,agility ,pet ,working,trials etc . In the UK we have an average of less than a combined score of 10 for hips in Labrador retriever for Field trial bred retrievers and an average of 0.01 for elbows in field trial bred retrievers .This average increases when the whole population is included to a UK average of 12 for hips and 2 for elbows (for all dogs actually tested and submitted to BVA)
The caveat to this in the UK , is we can hip-score and elbow score (test) the dog when it is 12 months old ,unlike the US where 24 months is the norm ..I think ? ..therefore , less wear or proof in the field is less likely in a 12 month old dog than a 24 month old dog , and the usual variants of nurture/living conditions and terrain/expose etc .
Elbows -- To be specific are more of a minefield ,depending on the variants listed above (imo) , sure know one thing ! ..If the dog ain't done nothing other than run around a flat field and done no jumping or had no ice on it's legs it will have a lower score than one from the same litter who has at 12 month old ,and if you keep testing for something you are destined to find it sooner or later .
Merry xmas . Robert
ps. (I am No vet btw)
 
#5 ·
I have not seen any breeders offer it within their guarantee.

To be honest I do not think breeders should even offer any hip or elbow guarantee as long as both parents have been tested and have good or better hips and normal elbows. There are too many outside contributors that can affect passing hips and elbows outside the breeders control. Even if the issue is totally genetic related, why should the bitch owner be responsible if they have done their part by verifying both parents have passing hips and elbows? I would never seek a refund for a pup I purchased if it did not receive passing hips or elbows and both parents had their clearances.
 
#7 ·
I agree with this. If the breeder has done all they can to ensure the pedigree of the pups has the appropriate (and standard) health testing and certifications - and the buyer has also done their due diligence... the buyer should be happy with that and accept there is no guarantee of health beyond what the breeder has already done to give the pup the best possible chance of being physiologically healthy throughout their lives. Too much can happen environmentally after the pup leaves the breeder's home. I have heard horror stories of puppies being erroneously allowed to complete in activity that is not appropriate for the age/development of the pup.
 
#6 ·
IMO... Elbows can be influenced more by environment and trauma than hips. By definition, elbow dysplasia in Labs is a *fragmented* coronoid process (FCP). There is a conformation component that makes it more likely to fracture, but at the end of the day, some level of trauma caused pieces to chip off into the joint, starting the process of developing osteoarthritis. It might be running down stairs or repeated jumping from the truck or an overweight dog or something totally different.

All that said, I do not guarantee elbows because of the environmental component AND because people do breed dogs with non passing elbows AND because degree of elbow dysplasia per OFA does not correlate well with lameness or an inability to work. I know several dogs with QAA, FC AFC titles that did not pass OFA elbows. Essentially no one breeds non-passing hips. People do occasionally breed non passing elbows.
 
#8 ·
Few I know personally are even covering elbows in a breeder guarantee anymore. What Claire said about sums it up for me. OR someone waits until their bitch is pushing 4, gets QAA and suddenly decides they are going to breed her, does OFA, elbows are grade I, bitch has been pro trained and living on truck for years, never been symptomatic. Breeder is supposed to cover that? When both parents are normal elbows, passing hips, breeder has done their due diligence, what the owner does after they take pup home is beyond breeder's control. I think "guarantee" is a misnomer anyway, it's more like a warranty.
 
#9 ·
I'd be curious to know if puppy guarantees on hips (from years ago) was the result of a marketing technique. Just one more reason for someone to choose litter A over litter B - all else being equal.

In today's breeding of competition dogs - or higher end gun dogs - it would be unusual for someone to purchase a pup that did not come from parents with health clearances.

That said - I did see a recent ad for a litter by an FC in which I could not find the OFA cerf report for the dog. And apparently people are using him as a stud and selling pups.
 
#11 ·
That said - I did see a recent ad for a litter by an FC in which I could not find the OFA cerf report for the dog. And apparently people are using him as a stud and selling pups.
I know of one or two FC dogs that have their CERF eye exam results showing them as clear but they never sent in the results to OFA to be posted. So they may be Clear but the results are not posted on OFA.
 
#10 ·
Where is Lisa Van Loo when you need her? (Old timers will understand)

It depends.

Usually, sometimes you get a guarantee, sometimes you don't.

I typically ask for one. Sometimes I get one, sometimes I don't.

Sometimes the lack of a guarantee is a deal breaker for me. Sometimes it isn't.

Ted
 
#13 ·
I guarantee dogs won't be lame from hip or elbow dysplasia. I DO NOT guarantee they will pass OFA. I do not guarantee breedability. In the event a dog becomes lame up to 5 years old, they get another puppy from the next available litter without having to return the dog.
 
#14 ·
I guarantee dogs won't be lame from hip or elbow dysplasia. I DO NOT guarantee they will pass OFA. I do not guarantee breedability. In the event a dog becomes lame up to 5 years old, they get another puppy from the next available litter without having to return the dog.
Bridget , what exactly is 'Breedability' ? Thanks .
 
#17 ·
Take over? From whom? They have been trying to be the go to test for 20 years without any appreciable evidence that the procedure yields results that improve the accuracy of disease prediction. OFA has over 50 years of research and the inclusion of many other genetic test data. Penn Hip is a great source of income for the providers but has not produced any research linking the test to any reduction in the incidence of HD.
 
#18 ·
I don't breed much, but I don't guarantee elbows. There are too many environmental factors, i.e. doing too much with the dog too soon, keeping the dog overweight, letting them jump off the tailgate or out of a dog hole to the ground. I've seen several dogs with elbow issues that had no siblings or parents with elbow issues with one of the factors I mentioned earlier being prevalent.
 
#23 ·
If you are sending your high expectation puppy to a FT pro at 6 months old and have it run in derbies until it's aged out and at that time ready for hip, elbow and eye certificates I don't think the cost of the puppy is that concerning or atleast to me it wouldn't be. That training bill will hurt your heart if one were to end up with bad hips or elbows.
 
#24 ·
you can get pennhip done before 6 mo.... elbows too, I think?

However, elbows are one of those joints that degrade over time/use/type of use. If your trainer lets the pup jump out of the dog box, or if you do, then elbow injury is something that could have possible been prevented by simply not allowing the pup to jump from high elevation.

Same for knees/cruciates/shoulders? Maybe there is a genetic component to injuries that occur to these joints as well... but I don't know of any breeder that guarantees them?

No matter what reason you buy the pup for - everyone takes their chances on a pup....Assuming they have chosen a breeder that follows a high level of integrity when it comes to choosing breeding candidates - there is nothing more either party can do.. so why try to guarantee any joint disorder?
 
#25 ·
In regards to PennHip... I have a database of near 400!! (yes ,400) English setters, from this kennel alone, of PennHip results going back to the 1990's. I can unequivocally tell you basing a breeding program off of PennHip Results works. If I look at the first 50 dogs that DeCoverly Kennels tested and the last 50 we have tested, we have a SIGNIFICANT improvement in scores and set the standard for English setters.
 
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