Derby thread - Page 5
The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Wildear
Retriever Coach
Page 5 of 18 FirstFirst ... 3456715 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 178

Thread: Derby thread

  1. #41
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    493

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfTheGlades View Post
    LOL you feel some type of way about this dont you.... yikes. Its called a conversation. nobody is petitioning for placements to be changed or anything like that.
    With your reasoning there should NEVER be any discussion about how things are judged or why decisions are made. Which is what this was supposed to be...a discussion.

    I think what you’re seeing is a response that openly criticizing field trial placements is generally frowned on and unless you were actually holding the judge’s sheets and watching every dog it is virtually impossible to, with any true veracity, criticize the results. It’s considered poor form and seeing who was judging, albeit somewhat golden, really offensive.

  2. Remove Advertisements
    RetrieverTraining.net
    Advertisements
     

  3. #42

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Barton View Post
    I think what you’re seeing is a response that openly criticizing field trial placements is generally frowned on and unless you were actually holding the judge’s sheets and watching every dog it is virtually impossible to, with any true veracity, criticize the results. It’s considered poor form and seeing who was judging, albeit somewhat golden, really offensive.

    I hear you, and i get why some would get defensive. But i think i did a decent job avoiding calling the judges wrong. Rather i asked everyone's opinion on a certain fault " creeping and if in your opinion it should warrant a drop in placement.

    But i appreciate you clearing it up, i wasn't sure where the hostility was coming from. Im new to trials and the only aspect that was blatantly clear to me was that the marks were better. I was just gathering opinions on what is important to you guys in a derby.

  4. #43
    Senior Member Tobias's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    2,777

    Default

    Obviously trials are 1st thru 4th placement (and Rjam and jam if we are looking at that as well)

    Creeping is a fault... so are lots of other behaviors. If two dogs are 'equal' when it comes to their marking ability, then it makes sense judges will look at all of the other things that fall under judgement when determining which dog comes out on top.
    Is the dog learning because of what I do, or in spite of what I do?

  5. Remove Advertisements
    RetrieverTraining.net
    Advertisements
     

  6. #44
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Posts
    696

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfTheGlades View Post
    I posted the thread and deleted it. i know what the rule book says and i know a creep that persists turns into a moderate fault and should be marked down. The point of the post was to get yalls opinion. Do you agree that a significant creep should take you out of contention for first. Your question can't be answered without actually seeing all the work and judging the totality of each dogs work relative to the field. It is not suitable for an internet discussion IMHO. You cant pose a hypothetical based on your observations of an actual event. In this case The only relevant opinion is that of Ms Mertens & Mr Hawkins

    Im not sure where a handle came into the conversation. There was no handle. I believe the "handle" comment was Harry asking who started the thread & trying to make a humorous play on words. It was cleared up in the next post that there was no handling. You just answered his question as to who started and deleted the thread. Some of yall got all sensitive and wanted to attack me since i wasn't in the judges chair lol. I believe I was the only person who replied to your thread before you deleted it. I did not get sensitive or attack you, I merely pointed out that you weren't sitting in the chair.... "lol"?? Im not saying the judges got it wrong. You stated that you went over to another stake and announced that Shadow clearly won going away. That seems to me that you are saying they got it wrong!! Im just saying Shadows marks stood alone as the best marks in every single series. That is merely your opinion. Like I said you weren't sitting in the chair;...where the view is the optimal one to really see everything!!. It is possible that Jackie & Ernie may disagree with your opiniion. They may even have agreed with your opinion, and still justifiably awarded the blue to a dog other than Shadow. You are entitled to that opinion, but it don't mean squat in this case. Just starting a conversation.

    maybe you agree maybe you dont
    My comments in red
    Curious why why deleted your thread if you really wanted to have a conversation?
    So lets have the conversation you wanted to have.

    Lets use your scenario and assume that I am sitting in the chair and believe your version{I doubt it} that Shadows marks were in your words.........

    ........" Shadows marks stood alone as the best marks in every single series"

    Now lets also assume that Shadow also crept on some of the series.

    If that were the case, and I were sitting in the chair beside Jackie. If that truly were the case then I probably would still be arguing with Jackie in favor of giving Shadow the Blue ribbon, or running another series to agree on a winner.

    Not saying I am right, but the rule book allows some natural room for Judges to bring their beliefs on what they value most in evaluating dogs worth relative to others.
    I don't fixate on line manners as much as some do. I have my limits, but outside of major or eliminating faults & outlandish behavior. I make a note of it, but I lean more to the theory that creeping, bouncing around, head swinging and such loose line manners tends to handicap the dogs ability to see, truly mark and perform at their best once sent for the marks.

    I've had the privilege of seeing Shadow run quite a bit down the stretch as he dueled Rain for the 2019 high point Derby dog. I saw them duel at least half a half dozen weekend trials and was the Derby Stake Captain at two of them. I was also a Committee member at the National Derby Championship and present and working for all 10 series

    Let me give you an example of what I mean by somewhat tolerant of minor line issues in lieu of penalizing the consequences of sloppy line manners negatively impacting the work in the field, My example happens to involve Shadow.
    I had a number of talks with Bill {and Mary} about Shadows creeping. They related that they knew that running him so much was not ideal, but that it was what it was in light of the close fight for 2019 High Point Derby dog.
    In spite of what Tobias or Bryan think, He definitely has made the task more difficult, but I hope and believe they will be able to manage it so that he will have success going forward

    In the weekend trials Shadow was loose at the line, but for the most part marked very well in spite of it. The judging, IMHO agreed with me on that. At one of the trials I was the Captain of the Stake the Judges told me after setting up the 4th series to have grounds available and be ready to run a 5th or maybe even a 6th series because it was so tight among a number of dogs including Shadow and Rain. I'm fairly certain that line manners made the difference...OUT IN THE FIELD!!

    At the National, as typically happens the field slowly gets separation. Shadow was steady for the early series, but the looseness slowly re appeared

    As we got into the later series I had ID'd 4 dogs that I felt had separated themselves. The one I felt was in best shape returned to an old fall in the 8th {retired gun} series.
    Going into the 10th IMHO I had 3 dogs I felt were close. Shadow was one of those 3.
    The 10th was a water double. The mat for the 10th was set on a terrace about 75 to 100 yds from the water with a couple more terraces between the mat and water.
    The control memory bird was roughly 300 yds away with the true line hitting 3 pieces of water. The go bird flyer was about 150 with one piece of water to hit. Some may have viewed the go bird flyer as a contrary mark for a Derby dog, because it did not require the dog to stay in the water past the gunners to get the bird
    There was a peninsula on the far shore that if the flyer was rode out a long ways would have almost brought the dog to the bird rewarded the dog for "getting out early."

    Shadow was prancing as he came to the line. When the first bird went down he crept out, and quickly turned towards the flyer as the flyer was thrown he was creeping at an accelerating pace. Bill said "heel" and he turned to come back to Bill. As a result he did not see the flyer. You could see as he left the line that he was in trouble. Being well schooled in water honesty he took the long swim past the gunners and hunted where he thought he should go. He put on a LONG LONG hunt on the wrong side of the guns and effectively ended any chance of winning.
    In effect, The judges didn't have to eliminate him for the line manners, as he eliminated himself BECAUSE of his line manners.

    BTW; Tobias, the dog that ended up winning the National did avoid water and did NOT run a straight line

  7. #45
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Anywhere we want, USA
    Posts
    5,025

    Default

    "Shadow was prancing as he came to the line. When the first bird went down he crept out, and quickly turned towards the flyer as the flyer was thrown he was creeping at an accelerating pace. Bill said "heel" and he turned to come back to Bill."

    What you have described is actually a controlled break, not a creep. It is a moderate fault. -Paul
    there's no good reason to fatten up a retriever.

  8. #46
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Stirling Scotland
    Posts
    2,432

    Default

    "Shadow was prancing as he came to the line. When the first bird went down he crept out, and quickly turned towards the flyer as the flyer was thrown he was creeping at an accelerating pace. Bill said "heel" and he turned to come back to Bill. As a result he did not see the flyer. You could see as he left the line that he was in trouble. Being well schooled in water honesty he took the long swim past the gunners and hunted where he thought he should go. He put on a LONG LONG hunt on the wrong side of the guns and effectively ended any chance of winning.
    In effect, The judges didn't have to eliminate him for the line manners, as he eliminated himself BECAUSE of his line manners.

    BTW; Tobias, the dog that ended up winning the National did avoid water and did NOT run a straight line" ...
    Here was me thinking that a Derby dog winner was all about Marking ability ? .. Got it wrong again .
    One Shooter One Spaniel One Retriever

  9. #47
    Senior Member drunkenpoacher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    2,067

    Default

    Just FYI to help with future posts on proper RTF etiquette;

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfTheGlades View Post
    I posted the thread <bad move and deleted it <even worse. i know what the rule book says <the granddaddy of all provocative statements and i know <words that are offensive in any context a creep that persists turns into a moderate fault and should <a risky word be marked down. The point of the post was to get yalls opinion. Do you agree that a significant creep should take you out of contention for first.<you forgot the question mark and even worse, you asked a question

    Just starting a conversation.<good luck with that
    "I'm thankful someone stood up to him, even if it was a woman." Franco 10/18/19

  10. #48
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Posts
    696

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by paul young View Post
    "Shadow was prancing as he came to the line. When the first bird went down he crept out, and quickly turned towards the flyer as the flyer was thrown he was creeping at an accelerating pace. Bill said "heel" and he turned to come back to Bill."

    What you have described is actually a controlled break, not a creep. It is a moderate fault. -Paul
    Yes, it clearly was was a controlled break Paul. I am somewhat hearing impaired {aren't we all } and was a good 20 yds from the line and I could hear him clearly
    Bill left the line after Shadows run and came up to me and asked if I thought his telling Shadow to "heel" was a mistake.
    I told him that from my vantage point that He was correct in thinking that this was way more than a creep by Shadow and it was absolutely necessary because I didn't see any Stopping in Shadow's demeanor. He was gaining speed and appeared hell bent for leather to me. and one more step would have only increased his momentum as he would be on the downhill side of the terrace. The controlled break saved a disqualifying break. In spite of it and the gorilla hunt on the wrong side of the gun, Shadow was still a finalist, earning the 5 pts that go along with that accomplishment
    We laughed and he thanked me for reaffirming his decision, and muttered a few expletives at Shadow

  11. #49
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Posts
    696

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post
    "Shadow was prancing as he came to the line. When the first bird went down he crept out, and quickly turned towards the flyer as the flyer was thrown he was creeping at an accelerating pace. Bill said "heel" and he turned to come back to Bill. As a result he did not see the flyer. You could see as he left the line that he was in trouble. Being well schooled in water honesty he took the long swim past the gunners and hunted where he thought he should go. He put on a LONG LONG hunt on the wrong side of the guns and effectively ended any chance of winning.
    In effect, The judges didn't have to eliminate him for the line manners, as he eliminated himself BECAUSE of his line manners.

    BTW; Tobias, the dog that ended up winning the National did avoid water and did NOT run a straight line" ...
    Here was me thinking that a Derby dog winner was all about Marking ability ? .. Got it wrong again .
    Nope you got it mostly correct.
    The winning dog didn't run a straight line, and cheated some water, but he clearly exactly marked the location of the bird and stepped on the mark

  12. #50
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Anywhere we want, USA
    Posts
    5,025

    Default

    Running the number of trials in as short a period of time to be in the hunt for High Point Derby dog will take its toll on most any dog. They are very gifted markers, but it comes at a price for most. Correcting poor line manners that were learned over an extended period of time is very tough on the dog, as what was acceptable (actually desirable behavior from the dog's perspective) suddenly is not. Not necessarily physically tough, but definitely mentally tough.

    It's difficult to keep a top Derby competitor balanced. Don't be too critical of the dogs or the trainers. I hope Shadow has a long, successful All-Age career. -Paul
    there's no good reason to fatten up a retriever.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •