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Thread: Question about Hold and FF

  1. #11
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRD View Post
    I agree, I know this has been discussed. I’ve read through a few, but someone needs to tell me how to search this forum more efficiently. Seems like every thing I search, I get pages of thread and still only find 1-2 directly related to my question. I know they’re out there, but I don’t have much luck with the search function.
    If you look at the "Stiickys" that are also posted at top of page before the current thread list, You will se one Titled something Like, "How to Optimize the search function."



    https://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?94527-Forum-Searching-How-to-Optimize-your-Search-for-Topics
    Last edited by MooseGooser; 01-28-2020 at 08:37 AM.
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  3. #12
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRD View Post
    I’ve tried a Tap under the jaw with “Hold” command, “No”, tap under jaw and “hold” command, holding mouth closed with “hold” command.

    Thanks for response by the way. Every time I post a question, you offer input and I very much appreciate it.
    I'm with Darren about moving to FF but I want to point something out to you..

    If you're doing all that stuff and it's making him nervous (it is) - two or three major possibilities 1) you're doing it all too hard physically and verbally 2) your timing is off and 3) your dog is overall intimidated by you're being that close..

    All stuff to think about and refine as you go through more pressure oriented exercises. Timing, modulation and non-emotional responses are all critical to your dog's understanding.

    Good time for some in person coaching, possibly.
    Darrin Greene

  4. #13
    Senior Member Tobias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    I'm with Darren about moving to FF but I want to point something out to you..

    If you're doing all that stuff and it's making him nervous (it is) - two or three major possibilities 1) you're doing it all too hard physically and verbally 2) your timing is off and 3) your dog is overall intimidated by you're being that close..

    All stuff to think about and refine as you go through more pressure oriented exercises. Timing, modulation and non-emotional responses are all critical to your dog's understanding.

    Good time for some in person coaching, possibly.

    KRD - I wrote pretty much everything Darrin has said.... and was going to hit the 'reply button' Then I thought, I am not there to see what is going on. Giving reasons for why a dog is doing x y and z based on written text....welll.......

    Still - I agree with Darrin and Darin...

    If the dog is perfect in doing the obedience work while holding, why keep doing it for a week? why not just move on? From your despcription, the dog is ready.

    I never understood how people expected a dog to be calm and have a quiet 'mouth' when they were scolding/reprimanding and tapping or smacking the dog under the chin for not holding properly. Probably along with improperly timed corrections.
    The way I look at it, every dog is an opportunity to be a better trainer, and every day is a new day to be a better trainer to the same dog we trained yesterday.

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  6. #14
    Senior Member KRD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    I'm with Darren about moving to FF but I want to point something out to you..

    If you're doing all that stuff and it's making him nervous (it is) - two or three major possibilities 1) you're doing it all too hard physically and verbally 2) your timing is off and 3) your dog is overall intimidated by you're being that close..

    All stuff to think about and refine as you go through more pressure oriented exercises. Timing, modulation and non-emotional responses are all critical to your dog's understanding.

    Good time for some in person coaching, possibly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    KRD - I wrote pretty much everything Darrin has said.... and was going to hit the 'reply button' Then I thought, I am not there to see what is going on. Giving reasons for why a dog is doing x y and z based on written text....welll.......

    Still - I agree with Darrin and Darin...

    If the dog is perfect in doing the obedience work while holding, why keep doing it for a week? why not just move on? From your despcription, the dog is ready.

    I never understood how people expected a dog to be calm and have a quiet 'mouth' when they were scolding/reprimanding and tapping or smacking the dog under the chin for not holding properly. Probably along with improperly timed corrections.
    Noted. Thank you both. This is helpful.

  7. #15
    Senior Member KRD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    I'm with Darren about moving to FF but I want to point something out to you..

    If you're doing all that stuff and it's making him nervous (it is) - two or three major possibilities 1) you're doing it all too hard physically and verbally 2) your timing is off and 3) your dog is overall intimidated by you're being that close..

    All stuff to think about and refine as you go through more pressure oriented exercises. Timing, modulation and non-emotional responses are all critical to your dog's understanding.

    Good time for some in person coaching, possibly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    KRD - I wrote pretty much everything Darrin has said.... and was going to hit the 'reply button' Then I thought, I am not there to see what is going on. Giving reasons for why a dog is doing x y and z based on written text....welll.......

    Still - I agree with Darrin and Darin...

    If the dog is perfect in doing the obedience work while holding, why keep doing it for a week? why not just move on? From your despcription, the dog is ready.

    I never understood how people expected a dog to be calm and have a quiet 'mouth' when they were scolding/reprimanding and tapping or smacking the dog under the chin for not holding properly. Probably along with improperly timed corrections.
    Thinking on this some more. If I have made him nervous, by being to hard. How do I correct this? I guess the obvious answer is don't do that. My thoughts would be to continue with hold, but with less pressure to make him more at ease and comfortable, before moving on to FF.

    However, both of you recommend moving on to FF now, so that is what I will do. I'm just trying to learn and understand.

    Thanks,

    KRD

  8. #16
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRD View Post
    Thinking on this some more. If I have made him nervous, by being to hard. How do I correct this? I guess the obvious answer is don't do that. My thoughts would be to continue with hold, but with less pressure to make him more at ease and comfortable, before moving on to FF.

    However, both of you recommend moving on to FF now, so that is what I will do. I'm just trying to learn and understand.

    Thanks,

    KRD
    I've seen a number of dogs get squared away as the process goes on. You being more aware of your own actions and how they might effect your dog will help make sure that symptom doesn't get carried all the way through. Don't get too derailed thinking about things. Be observant, think as you go along and don't be afraid to ask for in person help from someone who's succeeded with a number of dogs. FF is one of the more tricky behaviors you're going to have to tackle. Good luck!
    Darrin Greene

  9. #17
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    If you're doing all that stuff and it's making him nervous (it is) - two or three major possibilities 1) you're doing it all too hard physically and verbally 2) your timing is off and 3) your dog is overall intimidated by you're being that close..
    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post
    A delivery to hand is good enough .No pressure ..simple place to start.
    Maybe FF ,Is not the next step .....Yet ? Darrin .
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  10. #18
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post
    Maybe FF ,Is not the next step .....Yet ? Darrin .
    Would be here for most people. The dogs tend to get trough OK.

    If I were doing it personally and created that issue, no.
    Darrin Greene

  11. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post
    A delivery to hand is good enough .No pressure ..simple place to start.
    Is this the practice of choice across the pond? Do you guys/gals not FF your retrievers?

  12. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jforqueran View Post
    Is this the practice of choice across the pond? Do you guys/gals not FF your retrievers?
    I'm not certain, but I believe e-collars are outlawed in many places across the pond.
    Not saying I still wouldn't FF, but it would be an abbreviated form of what we do

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