How do you feel about the expanded numbers in Master as a judge?
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Thread: How do you feel about the expanded numbers in Master as a judge?

  1. #1
    Senior Member jacduck's Avatar
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    Default How do you feel about the expanded numbers in Master as a judge?

    This area seems to be underutilized so I thought I would put this thread in here and hopefully NON-judges won't jump in and dirty the waters.

    I am on the upper end of the age spectrum and at the end of a 60 dog MHT it is a very long week-end for my body and brain. I am looking at the new numbers and wondering what punishment they will add.

    My mind is not made up and I welcome insight.

    I would like to hear other judges thoughts and anticipations Please.
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  3. #2
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    Yep, a 60 dog weekend is a big weekend. I don't mind it really, it's pretty much all I have ever known. I don't think I have ever done a 90 dog event. I don't think the 66 dog event will be too bad. It's only 6 dogs. And you know, often times there are a handful of scratches, so it probably all comes out in the wash. Yep, 6 dogs is probably another 45-60 minutes in the first series and if they all carry to the second and third we are probably talking that 6 dogs adds another 2-3 hours to the entire test.

    Tell you what, we will see how it goes this summer.

  4. #3
    Senior Member Kevinismybrother's Avatar
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    It's all about time management and club help/participation. I don't think the extra few dogs matter as much as getting started on time and moving quickly does. Spend a little less time on doing callbacks and you can make it up pretty fast.
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    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    60dogs was too many; once that started it became normal to see one truly weak series put on just to check boxes. This weekend was my introduction to 2 tests with 66 dogs, it's worst. Basically master is just 1 good series (still has to be quick marks), then 2 quick series each getting less difficult all in the name of checking boxes and finishing. Last series is destined to be a simple double. Did I judge the tests NOPE, just setup, took, down, moved and waited all day, until dark on Sunday when we thankfully finished (but it was close). The last series both tests was two 20-25yard marks, and a diversion shot.

    Do I judge (YEP). My feeling is in order to have a good master test with these numbers
    A) masters needs to go down to only 2 series.
    B) Judges need to put on harder tests (marks and blinds) then actually grade them, not just let the dogs take themselves out.
    C)Tests need to be completely setup all 3 series, no down-time btw series, and everyone who needs to run, needs to be at masters not moving to other stakes.
    D) No 1 handler should be running over a 1/4 of the dogs. No 2-3 handlers should have over a 1/2 of the total dogs. And of course they are running a good portion of the dogs in other stakes as well. So who is everyone waiting for all day? While the single dog handler is getting constantly moved and bumped on the marshal list, oftentimes after you've already; aired and prepared walking to the holding blind. I got a single dog out of the truck 3 different times.

    Perhaps if a club was to run a masters only test, and stay on time-line; with someone always pushing, pushing, pushing; you might be able to have a complete master test with 3 strong series. Perhaps in theory there is a group of judges 1 in 20 that can handle these numbers and the still put on a complete test. In practice from what I've seen this is not the usual case; in 2-3yrs; I have see 1 complete test (thurs-Sat) they didn't finish in 2 days. I keep notebooks on my test setups and those I've ran though-out the years. I go back to those notebooks on different tests, and the series I'm seeing right now would never have be considered to the master level. Many of the senior tests in my notebooks are more challenging. I would blame this all on too many dogs running a single master stake; the need for speed over substance.
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 02-11-2020 at 03:14 PM.
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    Senior Member red devil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt'EmUp View Post
    60dogs was too many; once that started it became normal to see one truly weak series put on just to check boxes. This weekend was my introduction to 2 tests with 66 dogs, it's worst. Basically master is just 1 good series (still has to be quick marks), then 2 quick series each getting less difficult all in the name of checking boxes and finishing. Last series is destined to be a simple double. Did I judge the tests NOPE, just setup, took, down, moved and waited all day, until dark on Sunday when we thankfully finished (but it was close). The last series both tests was two 20-25yard marks, and a diversion shot.

    Do I judge (YEP). My feeling is in order to have a good master test with these numbers
    A) masters needs to go down to only 2 series.
    B) Judges need to put on harder tests (marks and blinds) then actually grade them, not just let the dogs take themselves out.
    C)Tests need to be completely setup all 3 series, no down-time btw series, and everyone who needs to run, needs to be at masters not moving to other stakes.
    D) No 1 handler should be running over a 1/4 of the dogs. No 2-3 handlers should have over a 1/2 of the total dogs. And of course they are running a good portion of the dogs in other stakes as well. So who is everyone waiting for all day? While the single dog handler is getting constantly moved and bumped on the marshal list, oftentimes after you've already; aired and prepared walking to the holding blind. I got a single dog out of the truck 3 different times.

    Perhaps if a club was to run a masters only test, and stay on time-line; with someone always pushing, pushing, pushing; you might be able to have a complete master test with 3 strong series. Perhaps in theory there is a group of judges 1 in 20 that can handle these numbers and the still put on a complete test. In practice from what I've seen this is not the usual case; in 2-3yrs; I have see 1 complete test (thurs-Sat) they didn't finish in 2 days. I keep notebooks on my test setups and those I've ran though-out the years. I go back to those notebooks on different tests, and the series I'm seeing right now would never have be considered to the master level. Many of the senior tests in my notebooks are more challenging. I would blame this all on too many dogs running a single master stake; the need for speed over substance.
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  8. #6
    Senior Member drunkenpoacher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt'EmUp View Post
    A) masters needs to go down to only 2 series.
    B) Judges need to put on harder tests (marks and blinds) then actually grade them, not just let the dogs take themselves out.
    C)Tests need to be completely setup all 3 series, no down-time btw series, and everyone who needs to run, needs to be at masters not moving to other stakes.
    D) No 1 handler should be running over a 1/4 of the dogs. No 2-3 handlers should have over a 1/2 of the total dogs. And of course they are running a good portion of the dogs in other stakes as well. So who is everyone waiting for all day? While the single dog handler is getting constantly moved and bumped on the marshal list, oftentimes after you've already; aired and prepared walking to the holding blind. I got a single dog out of the truck 3 different times.
    E) Draw draw 33 names out of a hat before the test starts, give them orange ribbons and send them home. (super big smiley makes it OK)
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  9. #7
    Senior Member Troy Tilleraas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinismybrother View Post
    It's all about time management and club help/participation. I don't think the extra few dogs matter as much as getting started on time and moving quickly does. Spend a little less time on doing callbacks and you can make it up pretty fast.
    6 more dogs... Hold them to the standard. in the area of the fall pick up the bird... stay in the corridor listen to the whistle and the commands. Move on.

    Judge from when you call the dog to the line and don't disregard all the crap that happens before the bird goes off- will let you decide if you want to hunt with that dog.

    Dennis and I judged Master E at the Master Nationals and really only had a difficult decision about 1 dog. People on here talk about FF but I have never dropped a dog in Master that didn't fetch the bird. We did drop 6 dogs that didn't drop the bird when told to though! Repeated evidence, 3 series toast.

    Now why don't you guys FF to DROP? Have not heard one single person talk about it ...
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    Senior Member Purpledawg's Avatar
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    Ask me after the coming weekend....
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    Senior Member Don Smith's Avatar
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    As you know, John, I'm not a judge (although I did get my AKC judging license years ago. Just never had time to judge, so I let it lapse). And, I won't muddy the waters by commenting on the issue. Just wanted to say that you don't seem that old to me, my friend. You're pretty daggoned spry! Hope to see you this year.
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  12. #10
    Senior Member Good Dogs's Avatar
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    If the judges aren't diligent about their time management - I had a lecture on that topic when I judged my first 30 dog master -; if the club is not prepared to start on time and keep things moving; if the marshal is not diligent about keeping the holding blinds filled; if the gunners can't find the broadside of a barn; whether it's 66 or 56 or even 46 dogs, it's going to be a long dreary weekend. I don't have a problem with a 66 dog field and expect that I'll use the full two days allotted. (Nothing in the rule book refers to a Sunday lunch time finish.) Tests don't have to be time consuming to show whether the pups can mark, be obedient on line, run a challenging blind and properly deliver a bird.
    The 10% bump was an effort to relieve some pressure on the demand side for master tests. Let's give it some time to see how it works.
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