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Thread: The game

  1. #11
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    What Tobias said.
    Problem of asking for free advice is it's free. With free comes no accountability.
    Put away the tennis ball and make the game all about bumpers. Chances are your dog will figure out what is supposed to be fun. Best of luck. Please be patient with your dog. There may be lots of old habits to break.

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  3. #12
    Senior Member KwickLabs's Avatar
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    AA, I am older than most on here and feel a bit of advice might be helpful. Many years ago, I took a young, very talented
    retriever to a new Pro friend for some advice. Taffey was running Finished HRC which means she was attempting advanced
    "stuff". He watched politely for quite awhile and I asked several times "What do you think?" As we continued, I got no replies.

    Finally, I asked (patience wearing thin), "Why don't you just tell me what's wrong? That's why I came here!"

    After a long pause.....he said, "Well..It's not the dog."

    My reply was, "I kind of knew that. But, why did you wait so long to tell me?"

    His reply was significant. "Because most clients don't want to be told the truth."

    Only then did we get more specific.

    Which may be a round about way to let you know, it is better to take things with a grain of salt and to sort out intentions
    and advice that may seem too frank. Dealing with advice on training forums requires skills most do not have without
    practice. Forum posts are often not even close to a personal, two way, "give and take" conversation.

    Frustration is mostly self-inflicted. Don't ask me how I know that.
    Last edited by KwickLabs; 03-15-2020 at 04:03 PM.
    Jim Boyer KwickLabsii.com

  4. #13
    Senior Member T. Mac's Avatar
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    In addition to Tobias's suggestions, I would add in a large dose of clipped wing pigeons to build the prey drive. Just don't overdo it until you have done your hold and FF training.
    In the 60's, people took acid to make the world weird.Now the world is weird and people take Prozac to make it normal.

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  6. #14
    Senior Member Steve Shaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by American Ace View Post
    Thank you to kwicklabs for the helpful lonks. I appreciate it. Steve Shaver thank you for your criticism. I am glad it is free. If you go back and read carefully you will see why I am as you put it behind the game. The dog is new to me!!! I have had him 2 weeks. Thanks for being so helpful there. You have reminded me of why I do not come here much and have further reminded me to not waste my time here anymore. What a helpful place for people to come and learn about training. Thanks for nothing.


    WELL EXCUUUUUSSSE ME!!!!!!!!!

    Sorry didn't mean to make you cry I was truly trying to be helpful. You have reminded me why I should not bother coming here either!! No need to worry Im done with this internet dog training BS. Im taking my tennis ball and go play somewhere else. Love to say a whole lot more here but what I have to say would just get deleted anyway. What a baby.

  7. #15
    Senior Member KwickLabs's Avatar
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    Smile

    Well, I tried to point out that "working a forum" is not easy.

    Then, I thought about posting this link......but I resisted.....some....not enough I guess..

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/don%2...on_the_way_out

    This is a friendly jab.....you are supposed to take it that way.

    Later in the day, I thought your issue might prove to be the stimulus for analyzing my training
    with Hillmann's approach over the last several years. It proved to be useful (at least for me).

    The training forums continue to have threads dealing with training a pup using Hillmann. The most recent
    one began with having an issue of barking at a thrown bumper. The significant aspect about the Hillmann
    approach is that thrown bumpers are NOT part of the process…..early on. The following YouTube with Mary
    Tatum clarifies that point. The puppy in the YouTube was doing his very first sessions of “The Game” at
    almost three week old. That is not a misprint. It progresses through three timely spaced intervals of training.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KaIfY-fBa4

    After doing Hillmann with two pups, the obvious has become clearer. The two I have were/are different
    (higher than a kite vs a little more subdued) and both were older by several weeks. Whatever situation
    surfaces with the next pup (if there is one), adjusting training will be much simpler. Each training session
    lesson is determined by doing what a pup needs in the moment (especially in the beginning).

    For example, If a pup is barking at a bumper when it is on the ground, then reduce those types of
    repetitions and keep the pup more engaged (with you while a bumper is in his mouth or being held by
    the trainer). Less of "this" and more of "that" is the key to balance. That is somewhat like the concept
    of “bumper in mouth” training. How teaching proceeds is determined by what a pup needs (and they are
    not all the same).

    Keeping a dog in balance is a function of five factors - retrieving, "birdiness”/bumpers, responsiveness,
    focus and control. Any puppy barking at tossed bumpers is getting too much retrieving/"bumpers" and
    not enough of the other three (which are greatly impacted by distance).

    The following is a significant concept. Go back and review Mary Tatum’s YouTube (which covers several
    weeks of sessions), the first several day sessions were NOT involved in any retrieving (tossed bumpers).
    Resist the urge. The focus is purely on responsiveness and focus - engagement. Once those are introduced,
    and regularly demonstrated...then control begins to gradually fall into place and only then is training
    enhanced by the excitement of retrieving and "birdiness”/bumpers

    To repeat, the Hillmann puppy approach begins by developing exciting focus, control and responsiveness on
    a short lead. Once a pup is initially “hooked up”, engaged and practicing with the trainer, only then do you
    begin retrieves (not many, very short ones to start with). The process is best when it is sequential and seamless.

    You must become the center or your pup's universe.

    One must resist the urge to watch a pup charge out and attack something…until other “stuff” is in place.
    When a poorly engaged pup runs “out there on his own”, the decision about what to do next becomes his
    and developing engagement (responsiveness) often turns into a problem.

    Balancing engagement up close first is the key. To repeat, more of this and less of that is the key to balance.
    What each pup needs in the moment is not universal. It is the trainer's responsibility to determine what the
    pup needs. Puppy barking at thrown bumper is saying, "I am not engaged with you!" Establishing balance
    is not in the pup's job description.
    Jim Boyer KwickLabsii.com

  8. #16
    Moderator Renee P.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by American Ace View Post
    Thank you to kwicklabs for the helpful lonks. I appreciate it. Steve Shaver thank you for your criticism. I am glad it is free. If you go back and read carefully you will see why I am as you put it behind the game. The dog is new to me!!! I have had him 2 weeks. Thanks for being so helpful there. You have reminded me of why I do not come here much and have further reminded me to not waste my time here anymore. What a helpful place for people to come and learn about training. Thanks for nothing.
    Welp this is just me, regular Renee not Moderator Renee.

    Still being that I am also known as Moderator Renee I am moderating my response in advance of the moderator having to moderate me.

    In 2011 I got a little retriever puppy, full of retrieving desire...I got her hoping that she had passed all of the health check boxes after my dog Sophie got diagnosed with PRA (late onset genetic blindness). My goal was meat dog that hunted a couple times a year, was nice house pet.

    Oh boy, what a ride. Steve was one of the first locals to help me out. He is like one of the nicest guys around. Just yesterday we/I were teasing him about how mean he was - this was supposed to be ironic cuz I have actually never seen Steve be anywhere near mean except once when I was training with Steve and his dog Bill cut up the hillside and backside the retired gun.

    Meanwhile thanks to help from Steve my little girl Anna got some Derby points, even won one. She got her AKC MH, won an Am. I got a lot of help from Steve and other locals, also I got a lot of help here on the RTF - listened and learned.

    Pete, your responses are Gold, I wish you checked in more.

    Where did Alec Sparks go, I loved his input as well. Especially Pete vs Alec.

    Stepping off my high horse regards...

  9. #17
    Senior Member 2tall's Avatar
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    Renee, I too miss Alec! He and Pete were diamonds!
    Carol Howey
    Owned and handled by Cruisin' with Indiana Jones, JH
    (6/2/05 - 6/12/17) The finest animal I'll ever know.
    Alternate Handler: Westwind Buffalo Soldier
    Apprentice Handler: Snake River Medicine Man, SH
    New kid: Howey Do Dat? July 14, 2019 Prize x Katie
    http://newhoperetrievers.com/Carol/_carolBlog/

  10. #18
    Moderator Renee P.'s Avatar
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    OMG just now remembering that, 9 years ago, first pup in hand, I asked Steve Shaver how I might could use the baseball pitching machine that I already owned to train my pup. It also threw flyballs, tennis balls!

    Sell it, he said, buy a winger. I did.

  11. #19
    Senior Member crackerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renee P. View Post
    Welp this is just me, regular Renee not Moderator Renee.

    Still being that I am also known as Moderator Renee I am moderating my response in advance of the moderator having to moderate me.
    Regardless the guise, regular Renee or regulator Renee, that's nice work rebutting unfounded umbrage by complimenting Steve Shaver for the guidance he gave.

    Believe Alec may be working in the Alps as my cuz Alberto Tomba's aide de camp (not really, but you never know - he's liable to show up at a field trial with a St. Bernard!). Glad to see Pete chiming in again, too.

    MG

  12. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Shaver View Post
    Get rid of the tennis balls and never let him see another one the rest of his life!!! Also forget the paint roller and just start playing with bumpers and real birds on occasion, bumpers way more than birds for now.
    This would have sufficed.

    I would offer you a slice of humble pie, unfortunately there is none available.
    ROCK CHALK

    What is Faith? It is the confident assurance that something we want is going to happen. It is the certainty that what we hope for is waiting for us, even though we cannot see it up ahead. ​HEBREWS 11:1

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