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Thread: Cheating water off point at end of blind

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Marti View Post
    Wow. This is very interesting to me. Paul: Are you saying it is probably easier to control a dog and better to get him where you want him to be by giving an OVER cast rather than a back cast?

    Why would this be? Do you think, in general, OVER casts tend to be shorter? Or easier for the dog to understand? Or to see in body language?

    Please can you expand/expound on this?

    Thanks.

    OK, so, a few things about points in water blinds, first.

    1. Some call them a factor, but they are really a hazard.
    2. If you are using birds in training, or are running a trial, points will be scented. Some by design, but always because dogs returning with birds will scent them
    on their return as they cross the point.
    3. Any appreciable amount of wind will make re-entry off a point more difficult.
    4. There is almost always some distance beyond the point, just after re-entry, where the dog will be out of sight of the handler. Even if the dog takes a perfect 'back' cast.
    A successful over cast takes that out of play.
    5. If the Swim By drill was a panacea for honesty in taking a back cast off a point in a water blind, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

    A few 'Dog' things related to points:
    1. Dogs have legs and feet, not fins. Water will always influence their responses, so consistency in how we handle around points is important in order to get good results.
    2. Observe your dog closely when it lands on the point:
    -how is the dog performing on the blind up to the point? Watery? Cheaty? Showing good balance/responses?
    -is it sitting straight, or leaning one way or the other?
    -is it obviously sniffing scent? What are you going to do about it?
    -did it shake out it's coat? (this is not good!) If so, the dog is telling you it thinks the water portion of the blind is over. What are you going to do about it?

    If you have reached the point and the dog is on it, within the area it should be, you have had at least some success so far on this blind. All that goes out the window without a successful re-entry. This is probably the easiest place to lose your dog on a water blind and fail the test or trial. If in a trial, remember that no one ever won a trial after the water blind. A good blind in a trial earns you the chance to excel on the water marks. If in a Hunt Test, well, no one wins a Hunt Test. But you sure can lose one if your dog gets out of control on a water blind.

    So, why not get an 'over' into the water off the point, where you can see the dog, then give a 'back' cast to get back on line and finish the blind with style?
    Contrast this with what may happen if you either let the dog roll, or give a back cast off the point and the dog hits the water and starts down the back side of the point, out of sight.
    -you can't see it and don't know exactly where it is.
    -when you blow the whistle, your dog can't see you.
    -you give a come in whistle and hope the dog responds.
    -you are now not progressing toward the bird and the dog's momentum is crushed.
    -the dog is significantly off line.
    -now you need the 'over' cast to get the dog off the point where you can see it, anyway.

    If it's a trial, you're toast. If it's a Hunt Test you're in deep s...t.

    That's why I think an 'over' is the correct cast off a point. Just my opinion, worth exactly what you paid for it. -Paul
    there's no good reason to fatten up a retriever.

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  3. #62
    Senior Member Steve Shaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drunkenpoacher View Post
    An excellent point
    Eliminating the point altogether can help simplify the concept. Pick a spot on a straight shoreline, land the dog there, then cast him back to water. No point for the dog to worry about landing on or not. He only needs to take and carry the casts as given, sometimes to land and sometimes to water.


    OR run a tight angle parallel the shore on land a ways and cast into the water. I simply like to teach the dog to do what I say no matter what the case. Take he line and or the cast I give you.

  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul young View Post
    OK, so, a few things about points in water blinds, first.

    1. Some call them a factor, but they are really a hazard.
    2. If you are using birds in training, or are running a trial, points will be scented. Some by design, but always because dogs returning with birds will scent them
    on their return as they cross the point.
    3. Any appreciable amount of wind will make re-entry off a point more difficult.
    4. There is almost always some distance beyond the point, just after re-entry, where the dog will be out of sight of the handler. Even if the dog takes a perfect 'back' cast.
    A successful over cast takes that out of play.
    5. If the Swim By drill was a panacea for honesty in taking a back cast off a point in a water blind, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

    A few 'Dog' things related to points:
    1. Dogs have legs and feet, not fins. Water will always influence their responses, so consistency in how we handle around points is important in order to get good results.
    2. Observe your dog closely when it lands on the point:
    -how is the dog performing on the blind up to the point? Watery? Cheaty? Showing good balance/responses?
    -is it sitting straight, or leaning one way or the other?
    -is it obviously sniffing scent? What are you going to do about it?
    -did it shake out it's coat? (this is not good!) If so, the dog is telling you it thinks the water portion of the blind is over. What are you going to do about it?

    If you have reached the point and the dog is on it, within the area it should be, you have had at least some success so far on this blind. All that goes out the window without a successful re-entry. This is probably the easiest place to lose your dog on a water blind and fail the test or trial. If in a trial, remember that no one ever won a trial after the water blind. A good blind in a trial earns you the chance to excel on the water marks. If in a Hunt Test, well, no one wins a Hunt Test. But you sure can lose one if your dog gets out of control on a water blind.

    So, why not get an 'over' into the water off the point, where you can see the dog, then give a 'back' cast to get back on line and finish the blind with style?
    Contrast this with what may happen if you either let the dog roll, or give a back cast off the point and the dog hits the water and starts down the back side of the point, out of sight.
    -you can't see it and don't know exactly where it is.
    -when you blow the whistle, your dog can't see you.
    -you give a come in whistle and hope the dog responds.
    -you are now not progressing toward the bird and the dog's momentum is crushed.
    -the dog is significantly off line.
    -now you need the 'over' cast to get the dog off the point where you can see it, anyway.

    If it's a trial, you're toast. If it's a Hunt Test you're in deep s...t.

    That's why I think an 'over' is the correct cast off a point. Just my opinion, worth exactly what you paid for it. -Paul





    Lots of good points Paul

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  6. #64
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul young View Post

    That's why I think an 'over' is the correct cast off a point. Just my opinion, worth exactly what you paid for it. -Paul

    I think it depends on context. In training, I would give an angle back off the point, and look for the dog to seek water.

    In competition, it would depend on the dog and the conditions. I have had dogs that would give me an "over" without a collar, and others that would give me a skinny angle back (if that) if I cast "over" without a collar.

    In competition, run your dog, not the blind.
    Competition does not build character - It reveals it.

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  7. #65
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    The way I was tuaght point drills is to train the dog intiallly to take a significant cast over into the water off the point. Whether a will dog carry a straight line, especially a young dog is questionable. Their tendency is to scoot behind the bank and not take water. If you teach a dog to come off a point further over into the water, you can actually see your dog and not loose him behind the bank. After this is ingrained you can teach the dog to make more direct lines over the point (lining drills); but it is important to teach the OVER off the point as it also teaches the dog to drift out to sea; when you whistle enabling them to see actually casts. Smart handler on such a blind will give a somewhat exaggerated cast Over into the water; so they can see their dog. I setup these blinds all the time when judging, as it is a really good way to judge handler-dog teamwork. I will not tell you the ratio of smart handlers to other types of handler getting through this type of blind; as it's pretty disheartening. DAH is usually written for handler who chooses to use the casting arm that tells the dog to seek land, and many people do that (as it is theoretically-visually "the correct" line)
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 05-21-2020 at 11:51 AM.
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  8. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul young View Post
    OK, so, a few things about points in water blinds, first.

    1. Some call them a factor, but they are really a hazard.
    2. If you are using birds in training, or are running a trial, points will be scented. Some by design, but always because dogs returning with birds will scent them
    on their return as they cross the point.
    3. Any appreciable amount of wind will make re-entry off a point more difficult.
    4. There is almost always some distance beyond the point, just after re-entry, where the dog will be out of sight of the handler. Even if the dog takes a perfect 'back' cast.
    A successful over cast takes that out of play.
    5. If the Swim By drill was a panacea for honesty in taking a back cast off a point in a water blind, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

    A few 'Dog' things related to points:
    1. Dogs have legs and feet, not fins. Water will always influence their responses, so consistency in how we handle around points is important in order to get good results.
    2. Observe your dog closely when it lands on the point:
    -how is the dog performing on the blind up to the point? Watery? Cheaty? Showing good balance/responses?
    -is it sitting straight, or leaning one way or the other?
    -is it obviously sniffing scent? What are you going to do about it?
    -did it shake out it's coat? (this is not good!) If so, the dog is telling you it thinks the water portion of the blind is over. What are you going to do about it?

    If you have reached the point and the dog is on it, within the area it should be, you have had at least some success so far on this blind. All that goes out the window without a successful re-entry. This is probably the easiest place to lose your dog on a water blind and fail the test or trial. If in a trial, remember that no one ever won a trial after the water blind. A good blind in a trial earns you the chance to excel on the water marks. If in a Hunt Test, well, no one wins a Hunt Test. But you sure can lose one if your dog gets out of control on a water blind.

    So, why not get an 'over' into the water off the point, where you can see the dog, then give a 'back' cast to get back on line and finish the blind with style?
    Contrast this with what may happen if you either let the dog roll, or give a back cast off the point and the dog hits the water and starts down the back side of the point, out of sight.
    -you can't see it and don't know exactly where it is.
    -when you blow the whistle, your dog can't see you.
    -you give a come in whistle and hope the dog responds.
    -you are now not progressing toward the bird and the dog's momentum is crushed.
    -the dog is significantly off line.
    -now you need the 'over' cast to get the dog off the point where you can see it, anyway.

    If it's a trial, you're toast. If it's a Hunt Test you're in deep s...t.

    That's why I think an 'over' is the correct cast off a point. Just my opinion, worth exactly what you paid for it. -Paul
    Paul and I are old enough to remember the old axiom:
    "Over" to the ribbon table. "Back" to the truck.
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  9. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Marti View Post
    Wow. This is very interesting to me. Paul: Are you saying it is probably easier to control a dog and better to get him where you want him to be by giving an OVER cast rather than a back cast?

    Why would this be? Do you think, in general, OVER casts tend to be shorter? Or easier for the dog to understand? Or to see in body language?

    Please can you expand/expound on this?

    Thanks.
    Which cast "over" or "back" is dependent on the dog and the setting (trial vs training). A cast out into water to keep the dog visible is what I want and that cast is opposite to most dogs natural tendency. Dogs tends to "wrap around" obstacles. Going over points,or past hay bales, islands, large trees /bushes... a whole new world opens up to the dog's visual field and they fade that way taking behind the obstacle and out of sight.
    Another old saying: " Out of sight out of control".

    Tim
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  10. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Carrion View Post
    Another old saying: " Out of sight out of control".
    Tim
    And - "Out of the trial/test."
    Good Dog Ranch
    Bob Swift

  11. #69
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    https://youtu.be/u4LI1dPxCxw


    This is my 6year olds first real water blind of the year. Water has not been access able but it is on and off a point. Just about lost him around the corner but barely saved it because he is a good boy. I was standing too close to the water to give lateral movement with my over cast. Had I been prepared I should have moved farther to my left before stopping him so I could give that movement with my cast. I did loose my 2 year old around the corner for the same reason but I was able to whistle her back to the point then cast her into the water and to the blind. Actually with this dog at closer range I would give a more literal cast but with little water work this year and distance I needed a pretty big over.

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