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Success/ Failure rate in training set-ups.

5K views 24 replies 19 participants last post by  minnducker 
#1 ·
Discussion this weekend at our training group. Obviously this is a rough guesstimate unless you keep detailed training notes.

What percentage of marking tests do you think dogs should succeed in picking up easily?

There are always marks we think will be challenging that dogs snap up with ease. There are also tests that have an easy bird that every dog screws up.

I've heard of trainers that shoot for over 50% failure rate. That being a mark that requires a long hunt, gunner help or a handle/ correction.

Young dog marks like cheating singles would obviously have a higher rate of "failure" even though they are more drills than marks.

My thought is that there's a balance between not grinding a dog to nub with failure and spoon feeding success with no lesson learned.

Thoughts?
 
#2 ·
I don't "shoot" for any failures. I set up tough marks along with confidence marks. Dogs don't have to have success to learn but I don't set out to cause a failure.
 
#3 ·
In a perfect setup every mark should be meaningful and challenging for the dog without going over it's head. 100% success would be great as long as the dog is challenged and learning a concept. No easy task to get those kind of setups consistently.
I think it depends on what you consider a failure. Handling a dog for giving in to a factor, wind or terrain maybe. That could be considered a failure, to some degree, in a trial, in training it is teaching IMO.
A dog only has so much gas in it's tank, I try not to waste it on meaningless marks.
 
#4 ·
In a perfect setup every mark should be meaningful and challenging for the dog

A dog only has so much gas in it's tank,
In answering the OP one needs to realize that most dogs do not have the same training foundation. If the dog has not
been prepared by sound & proper basics the dog will be challenged by things other dogs handle as routine. Training on
tests that create nothing new is mostly a waste of time. Re-running a test that many dogs failed can be a real confidence
builder in a dog. One has to remember to re-create the exact test, there are subtle reasons many tests are much harder
than they appear & others are not.
 
#6 · (Edited)
How can a dog fail training? As long as the dog learns; and through repetition retains it; isn't that the point? If you run nothing but marks, that the dog can do easily; how can it be considered training? The dog is not learning. I've never had a dog fail in training, I've had dogs that to needed work through concepts and later repeat those concept several times. But they don't fail at it, we work them through it so that they learn. You can fail at test, because you're being graded, if a dog is failing in training; perhaps we should be look more at how the trainer, is handling the session.
 
#7 ·
Discussion this weekend at our training group. Obviously this is a rough guesstimate unless you keep detailed training notes.

What percentage of marking tests do you think dogs should succeed in picking up easily?

There are always marks we think will be challenging that dogs snap up with ease. There are also tests that have an easy bird that every dog screws up.

I've heard of trainers that shoot for over 50% failure rate. That being a mark that requires a long hunt, gunner help or a handle/ correction.

Young dog marks like cheating singles would obviously have a higher rate of "failure" even though they are more drills than marks.

My thought is that there's a balance between not grinding a dog to nub with failure and spoon feeding success with no lesson learned.

Thoughts?
Many !!
I have had some dumb ass dogs in training that actually require things in training so broken down in fragments to actually 'Sit means Sit' ;)
and a few delightful ones that you don't really 'Train' ,you just show them what to do and they get it first time ?
....
Pushing one through a program or flow chart brings 'Many' complications and for others it's a seamless transition :)D) ..
Balance' ,would be a good book to read if you have the advantage of reading every dog every day at every stage of what every handler was doing ..at that point ?
I know one thing ?? A dog learns by doing things that works for the dog. How a handler/Trainer applies this concept in training concepts with his/her individual dog is the 'Balance' we all seek. ..Even the Top achievers in any sport have a high failure rate as a percentage to achievement,otherwise they would be winning every day and that doesn't happen ;)
 
#8 ·
I just love this post : from
All levels of training experience, from all levels of education , from
All levels of success or failure.
Was it Bear Bryant or Red Grange that said “ I want my practices real hard so the game will be real easy.

Silly me does not believe one day you wake up and say I m gonna do hard work and make it a challenge
Difficult marks/ challenging setups are a skill learned over time and dogs just don’t come out of the box doing that stuff at least none of mine ever have.
The ability to pull off difficult is taught from an early age And just like math ,gardening or whatever some are more natural than others. I believe the dogs like the challenge because here if we’re gonna exercise I m gonna ride in the atv while they run.
Just me and you won’t be the first to say I m crazy
Train hard
Dk
 
#14 · (Edited)
What percentage of marking tests do you think dogs should succeed in picking up easily?

Thoughts?
Before I can determine success I have to define the goal. This goal will vary dog to dog due to levels of training, previous problems, strengths and weakness the need for teaching vs the need to correct for a dog that should know better......
The dog can only try to run what I or the group set up. How a given dog is run on a set of marks is up to me as the handler. On any given triple or quad running a dozen plus dogs their will be several different orders of throws, retiring patterns, singles, doubles triples whatever,, depending on the handlers needs for that dog. The session can only be a failure if I as the handler place the dog in a situation that is beyond their ability and/or I fail to recognize problems the dog is getting into in a timely fashion creating bad habits or confusion. IMHO confidence is a key component in marking. Good dogs want to be successful and know when the have done well. This then allows them to take the next step tomorrow.

Tim
 
#17 ·
Some failures are worse than others? One reason for wanting success is habituation. Two mistakes is a habit. One mistake is a random occurrence. It is training philosophy?

It isn’t as simple as success versus failure. For example with cheating singles ... most people call back .... but I think you can teach someone with one handle. Two handles is one too many. Handling and then calling back is even worse than two handles. Three handles is horrendous. It is either call back or know you can do it in one handle. Why do I think that? Who knows?
 
#18 ·
Sometimes things go to the ****ter and you call it a day. “Never failure” must be the best trainer in the country. There are also controlled failures and plan B ready to put in if dog needs help.
 
#24 ·
..... plan B ready to put in if dog needs help.
This turned into a great threat. With well thought responses by so many. I wanted to quote the above from our friend in the Nutmeg State. So sweet and short (the post not the poster) as it could be overlooked is so very important.
Always have a plan B no matter the type of setup your running think of the what ifs and have a plan in place. And share your plan with your help in the field.
 
#19 ·
I heard about success/failure rate at a seminar that John Cavanaugh presented. I guess one has to wonder what was his original source and where he applied it most. It could easier to apply and quantify to obedience than set ups .... although I am sure it can be used for both. It is just a thought.
 
#20 ·
Lack of success is not necessarily failure. We setup training to teach then test desired behavior. We use handling, recalls, rethrows, and other types of rewards and corrections to help teach. Once we have taught a concept or behavior, proofed it, then generalized it to various locations we can add that to setups you expect the dog to be able to do without help.

I believe dogs need to run a lot of setups, in many different locations, that are well within their ability so they can do it right without any intervention. We ask them on marks to be very independent and to think. Handling and correcting too much can cause problems with momentum and confidence resulting in popping, bolting, peeking, coming home, aimless hunts, etc. Just because the dog does a setup perfectly, does not mean it did not learn something. Confidence and momentum are important to playing the game. I think Lardy trains for about 80% success ( no intervention).

Along with setups within the dogs ability, you want to continue to advance them. For less experienced dogs we are talking adding new or stronger factors, or marking concepts. For more advanced dogs combining factors and marking concepts to increase the difficulty and require them to bear down and think about the setup provides the environment for them to learn more. The trick is knowing and reading the dog. Is the dog educated enough, smart enough, has enough drive, has enough heart, and is physically capable to do the setup? If all of those are true then lack of success could come down to lack of effort.

I’ll add that location and context are important. Just because a dog does cheating singles on your home grounds perfectly every time does not mean they will do it perfectly in a different location. Generalizing behavior to new locations is important before you can be sure the failure is due to lack of effort.
 
#21 ·
The trick is knowing and reading the dog. Is the dog educated enough, smart enough, has enough drive, has enough heart, and is physically capable to do the setup?

I’ll add that location and context are important. Just because a dog does cheating singles on your home grounds perfectly every time does not mean they will do it perfectly in a different location.
Not much to add to that. I took the liberty to condense the takeaway message to three sentences. I would add that on occasion when training emphasize working on your dog’s weaknesses.
 
#22 · (Edited)
I have never seen a dog that didn't fail at something in training or a trial at some point. I have never seen a trainer/handler who didn't do the same. No pain, no gain.

I have touched on this before, but you can only really train during the periods that the dog has a significant break between tests or trials. If you are entered in trials or tests week after week, you really can't do anything but prepare for the next trial.

Does anyone really want to break a dog's momentum by focusing on a weakness with only 4-5 days between trials? That would inevitably mean introducing significant mental, and possibly physical stress to the dog as it struggles to assimilate new skills or improve on poor ones.

Ideally, going into a trial you want the dog to be confident, bold and relaxed. At the top of it's game.

To address the OP's question, the ideal success rate is going to vary according to the individual dog. At some point, almost all of them need to be taken down a peg or two to maintain your control. But a steady stream of failures may weigh the dog down and stifle their ability to make good decisions and respond to the handler in the way that is most productive. It's important to realize that what a dog perceives as failure may differ from ours. In the long run, if the dog has a good attitude and is willing to work with you, you have it about right for that particular dog. We all need to really observe our dog's body language, physical appearance, and demeanor every day in order to assess how things are going. -Paul
 
#25 ·
Great topic, and several precepts come to mind. A dog can’t learn if it never has to be corrected. Are you training or exercising? Keep in mind, you are 100% responsible for your dog’s attitude, so what kind of test is best to run next? When your dog is confident, happy and running hard, throw the book at ‘em, but be fair. Opposite is true if dog’s attitude is sour. Start every training session with a test the dog can do; also end every training session with a test the dog can do; train hard in between; result-dog looks forward to getting out of the crate to go to work, and goes to bed happy every night. A rerun after correction can serve as final test of the day since dog can do it. Think about what concept you are trying to instill in the dog, not the minutia of a particular setup. So, bottom line, the failure rate is an ever changing happenstance of where you and your dog are in your training program.
 
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