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Thread: Bird in Mouth okay when signaling for second retrieve?

  1. #21
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    A few thoughts to consider
    I am a FT Judge, and not a HT Judge
    I don't know if rules say a Jr consists of 4 series where each bird is considered to be a seperate series. I believe they do say the dogs should be tested on both land and water
    I'm a bit skeptical in light of the fact that there is no requirement that a Master have a set number of series; only that they get all the requirements in be it in 3, 4 or whatever # of series.

    I also assume that one of the judges duties is to inspect the bird to see that the bird is suitable for table fare and has not been crushed or chewed up by the dog
    If so the judge would be correct to demand the delivery so as to inspect the bird and possibly eliminating the dog; before continuing test by throwing another bird for this dog.

    Again not a HT judge
    Last edited by bullsprig1; 09-02-2020 at 08:26 AM.

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  3. #22
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    I don't see you have any choice but to deal with the noise, I mean it's not practical to say "hey judge, I'm going to let this dog hang onto the bird while they throw another one". They are going to expect you to take the bird just like everyone else did...

  4. #23
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Section 5. Junior Hunting Tests. Dogs shall be tested on a minimum of four single marks, two on land and two on water. No more than two marks may be thrown in a series.

    Under Junior test requirements what the rules state concerning delivery.

    (3) A dog must retrieve to hand. Failure to do so merits a grade of “0” in Trainability.

    The rules do not state something along the lines a Junior dog must deliver IMMEDIATLY upon return, and BEFORE the next bird is thrown As far as delivery,, the rules for Junior only state the red highlighted above.


    10. Always use a test dog before the start of every series. A good test dog: – is not entered in your test;

    If each bird is considered a “Series” each bird would require a test dog.. Example : Four single separate Marks, with each bird referred to as a series.. Each bird,and each single set up, would require a test dog.. I have never witnessed or run a Junior test like this. There is a Land series, and a Water series. Typically one series run in the morning, and 1 in the afternoon. Each series has two Back to Back single. There are call backs between series (Water and land) The Juniors I have run, all had at least one flyer.


    8. A series is defined as one or more hunting situations ending with callbacks, and an invitation by the Judges to continue, or, in the case of the last series in a test, final scores.

    The rule books definition of a “series”

    As far as examining birds.. The judge who is examining birds typically will note what bird or bird has been damaged enough to mark down the dog ,or maybe even eliminate the dog, and remove the bird from the test, and mark the bird as evidence to show handler. Being rough with 1 bird, usually wont be enough to cause elimination (Failer) Unless ,, the bird is visibly destroyed ..In has been my experience, it has to be clearly evident! It would be absolutely clear, probably long before the delivery.. Judges could still evalute questionable bird/birds after the second mark was thrown,
    I have never witnessed a dog dropped for hardmouth.. I will say, I have seen Flyers shot that weren’t even close to be considered table fair! J
    I am no longer a Judge, but, I have run my fair share of tests over 25 years.. I am personally very experienced at being dropped for a Long list of issues. J.
    Last edited by MooseGooser; 09-02-2020 at 10:56 AM.
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    HRCH FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet MH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

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  6. #24
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    bullsprig1 and O.clarki.......Please stop making sense. -Paul
    there's no good reason to fatten up a retriever.

  7. #25
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    https://images.akc.org/pdf/events/hu...ation_form.pdf

    Each single is a separate series and must be completed successfully before the next series can begin. Period. I'm done with this topic.-Paul
    there's no good reason to fatten up a retriever.

  8. #26
    Senior Member drdawg's Avatar
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    Just a thought. If this technique is working for you, you might want to work on this in training for the next 100 repetitions. That might just help with the noise problem. Habits are har to break, but changing course might be effective. Don't try to proof it for at least 50 repetitions!
    Lee J Herskowitz
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    www.semperretrievers.com

  9. #27
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Question about the evaluation form..

    The form asks for the dogs name. It also asks for what LEVEL. Junior, Senior, Master.

    Lets consider a Master test..

    Master tests TYPICALLY have a Land series . the Land SERIES include a triple mark with a walk up, and a Double blind situation. It also has a SECOND SERIES called a WATER Series, that includes a triple mark on water, and a water Blind. The test then has a third series Land/ Water that includes a triple mark wher possibly two birds are thrown on Land, and a third bird is thrown on water, it could include a water or Land Blind.. Sometimes there is a 4th series

    Are there not 3 separate series?(sometimes/possibly a fourth) Does the test not require the dog to retrieve 9 birds total as marks?

    Do you not fill the form out for the Marks in the Land series (Series1) that has three marks (triple) ( for example only) with scores 7-7-7 in each category (marking ,style ,perseverance, trainability) 7-7-7 for each mark in Series 1 on sheet? Or more simply, a 7 overall for the TRIPLE MARK?
    Do you not fill out the sheet the same way for each Series there after? ( Water series, Land/Water series)
    Also, are there not blind retrieves in each series? A land Blind, in series 1 (Blind 1) a Water Blind in series 2(Blind 2), and a water or land blind in series 3(Blind 3),, that you record those scores respectively?

    Therefore does not a Junior test have two SERIES (defined by the rules) , with a test dog before each, and a pause in-between each series for call backs. Each series in a Junior include no more than two single marks, typically thrown as “back to back” (meaning two marks thrown as single in two widely different directions, from the same line)

    Consider this statement from the RULE BOOK:

    Section 5. Junior Hunting Tests. Dogs shall be tested on a minimum of four single marks, two on land and two on water. No more than two marks may be thrown in a series.


    On the sheet for a Junior dog, would you not record scores (as example only) as 7-7 (mark1 and 2) for the two single marks in the land series (series 1) and maybe 7-7 for the two single marks in the water series (series 2)? Or more simply 7 with regards to marking in series 1 and two on the sheet.
    There is a pause between series (1 & 2) with call backs revealed after the completion of series 1 and before the start of series 2? (meets definition of a series per rule)
    If each single mark was considered a series, and considering how the RULES define a series, would you not be required to have:

    1. A test dog for each separate single mark .?
    2. A call back for each single mark considered a “”series”?
    3. All dogs would run each single mark separately with regards to running order, when complete, series 2 would start, with a call back,, and a test dog for the second series single mark, and each dog would run that series by running order, with the process repeated until all FOUR series (four separate single marks) are completed.? Of course if run this way, dog would have to deliver to hand IMMEDIATELY after each retrieve, Obviously!!!


    The back to back singles in (1 Land series, and in 1 Water series, the 2 series of a Junior test, “series” being defined by rule) presents a situation where a Judge COULD require the dog to deliver the bird IMMEDIATELY after its return and BEFORE the JUDGE will allow the throw of the second mark… But the RULES do not directly state this! The RULES Only state the Judge controls the mechanics of the tests , so,,,, SOME Judges Could require deliver Immediately after the return of retrieve, and BEFORE the throw of the next single mark,,, AND,,SOME JUDGES could merely JUDGE delivery to hand when it happens!. That could be after the handler turns his dog with bird in mouth to face second mark,,, and tells judge he is ready for the mark to be thrown.. Bird is thrown, dog delivers nicely to hand,, and the world is whole.. Right?? In that situation,,, THAT Judge controlled/allowed that mechanics of the test, right? The birds could still be examined for damage/fit for the table..

    Nowhere in the rules, that I could find, does it state at a Junior test.the bird must be delivered to hand immedialty after the return and BEFOR the next bird can be thrown… and that,, Each single mark is a series!! It just doesn’t state such a thing..

    STILL asking questions! J
    Last edited by MooseGooser; 09-04-2020 at 04:52 PM.
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    HRCH FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet MH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  10. #28
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    Three hypothetical judges sheets..

    1 master, two junior..

    master first.

    https://i.imgur.com/YGZJY41.jpg

    Junior 1

    https://i.imgur.com/5gTgzHu.jpg

    Junior 2 bird in mouth.

    https://i.imgur.com/FFTK7Qx.jpg
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    HRCH FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet MH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  11. #29
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    Since you don't want to listen to people who actually judge, ask the AKC for clarification about this bird in mouth nonsense. While you're at it ask them if each individual single is a separate series in Junior tests.

    Please! ENOUGH! -Paul
    there's no good reason to fatten up a retriever.

  12. #30
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Paul.
    I AM listening to you! And Wade!
    I have previously stated that If I was running a Junior test, and a Judge stopped my test and told me to take delivery of the bird, I have two choices to make! Comply,,or leash my dog and THANK the Judges..
    In this instance, I would,just simply comply!
    WHY?

    1. The Judges control the mechanics of the test. (rules)
    2. The Judge has power to fail me. (Obvious rule)
    3. The Judges decisions are final. (Rules)
    4. I respect the person giving up his day to evaluate my dog.. (sportsmanship rules)

    All I am pointing out is the RULES contradict the statement that each bird in a Junior test is a series. The RULES specifically define word “Series”. The RULES also state how many Single marks can be thrown in a SERIES at a Junior test.. TWO!
    If I ran a test under you, and you told me I can not use the word no! O,,r “go back to the holding blind, and bring your dog out on leash to the line, Or “Mike, Please take delivery of the bird”.. I would most definitely comply.. I WANT TO PASS!!! I want you to evaluate my dog that day..
    YOU, can fail me! YOUR decision is final…

    In this RTF sub section though, the topics are about questions with the rule books and rules....
    I am not running a test HERE! I am discussing the rule book. I am asking questions, respectfully.
    There is a contradiction here by Two Judges, that claim each bird in a Junior test is a series,, and what the rule book says.. Thats ALL I am pointing out,and questioning..
    If someone from AKC (one person I may get on the phone) confirmed what you and Wade claim,, the rule book needs fixed.. JMHO


    I will bow out..

    Mike
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    HRCH FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet MH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

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