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Breeding my female

16K views 72 replies 28 participants last post by  saltgrass 
#1 · (Edited)
So I’ve got a female out of Hardscrabbles Powder My Buns that is an HRCH SH.

https://huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=78357

I’m looking at breeding her to Hilltops Hayseed possibly but not sure if I will yet or not. If I do it’s gonna be pretty costly for me. Just trying to get a feel for what’s a deceit price for the pups would be and would many folks want a puppy out of him. Thanks for any input you may have.
 
#2 · (Edited)
How old?

What is her pedigree?

Have you had hips and elbows certified through OFA?

Eyes?

Genetic testing for CNM, EIC, PRA, Dilute...minimum?

What color is she?

I assume yellow or carries yellow?

Depending on all that you'd be looking at $1000 - $1500 a pup.

Could be more if she has a strong FT bitch line.

I think it would be worth your while to put at least a MH on her before you try a breeding like that.

If you could get a QAA the price would double.

IMO you'd be better off breeding to living stud for much cheaper and still get $1000+ a pup.
 
#3 ·
Looks like an advertisement, which belongs in the puppy classifieds...

Frankly, you only get so many litters from a bitch. Breed her to what you want. If you have a good competition history with her, breed to the right stud for her (pedigree, temperament, tractability, etc), and price the pups appropriately there will be homes.

I realize you probably don't know, but this is the second "if I breed my bitch to this stud who wants a puppy?" post in the last week or so and I don't feel it belongs here.
 
#4 ·
So I’ve got a female out of Hardscrabbles Powder My Buns that is an HRCH SH.
I’m looking at breeding her to Hilltops Hayseed possibly but not sure if I will yet or not. If I do it’s gonna be pretty costly for me. Just trying to get a feel for what’s a deceit price for the pups would be and would many folks want a puppy out of him. Thanks for any input you may have.
One rule of thumb on puppy price is equate it to your STUD FEE.
 
#6 ·
How is that a rule of thumb? I assume Bubba straws are at least 3000+. No way a litter from an HRCH SH would sell for 3000 unless the bitch has produced title dogs in a previous litter. Like mentioned above, FC/AFC x HRCH SH first litter is 1000-1200 maybe 1500. Very unlikely you will make money from your first breeding. Would be cheaper to buy the puppy you want.
 
#5 · (Edited)
You better have a good repro vet if this is your first breeding with her to risk the cost of using vintage frozen semen. Why do you want to breed her now? Is she older already? Don't count your chickens before they are hatched and assume getting pups from frozen semen is a given. Look at how much money you are willing to risk and not how much you will make, unless all you want is a pup for yourself, you should ascertain if you female can carry pups. Add in a c-section cost if you only have a singleton.

At six years old for a first litter you are already getting in the decreased fertility zone due to the damage every heat cycle does to the uterus according to Dr Hutchinson, a fertility expert.
 
#7 ·
Yes she’s had all her testing. EIC CNM clear Good hips Eyes CERF She’s 6 years old. Yellow with hidden black and comes out of a FC AFC along with an NFC being grand father on mother’s side. I duck hunt more than I trialed so that’s why she don’t have more titles on her.
 
#9 · (Edited)
If this is a puppy for you and this is the stud you want I wouldn't worry about puppy pricing nor taking a risk. A working girl (your girl) will only have so many litters. If you want a pup out of her, use the stud you want; even if it doesn't really make financial since. Now for a $3000 stud; I most likely would prove she can have pups with a live-breeding first (you've done this already). If I was breeding to sell puppies, I might be more concerned; but when I'm breeding for myself my goal is one Puppy for me. If there's more pups, then everyone else gets puppies that they might pay significant money for or they might just get a really good deal on.

Recently Rebel puppies were priced at $3000 not sure if they sold at that, but if I wanted a Rebel pup I might have bought one; as there aren't going to be that many more. I don't know if Hilltops Hayseed was one of those "popular" studs that people really would pay $$$$ for (ex; Lean Mac, Bored out Ford, etc). It might just be a select group; but nothing wrong with that. Sometimes buyers you wouldn't expect come out of the wood-work. I have a list of a bunch of studs that weren't super popular, but if a litter came up from them I might be really tempted, to purchase. It's a gamble, but I haven't ever regretted investing the money into my girls to get the stud I wanted. Even when such hasn't resulted in a litter.

What about a Hilltops Son? FC AFC Valtor's Hayseed Kid, FC AFC Holy Cross's Moses, AFC Hilltop's Boondocker , FC CFC CAFC TaylorsLab Magic Trick MH CD, FC Hilltop's Mountain Music; there's also seems to be a bunch of GHRCH QAA out of him; of course who knows depending on the Son' it might cost less or more. ;).
 
#12 ·
My Opinion is it won't, titles do help but the lines are more important. Certain pedigrees can sale just as high or higher without titles. This dogs pedigree is quite good; many noteworthy dogs (if you're into yellow); in addition all the females in the pedigree have upper titles including Female FC AFCs. I doubt an additional MH or QAA would add much to puppy price. QAA is a strange distinction, it can be a very wide range of Dog. I don't see QAA alone adding significant $ to breeding prices. Unless the dog out actively campaigning; has upper level placements, upper level points, knocking on the door for AFC-FC. Then it might be more about a dog being out there and people watching her; knowing her rather, and her record rather than the QAA distinction. Heck it could also be more about what her siblings or any of her previous puppies are doing at the time.
 
#11 ·
If you're doing even a loose line breeding on Bubba (or any of the other "old" ones for that matter), I'd strongly urge you to get PRA done on your female.

Stud fee very often has nothing to do with puppy price.

QAA does not double the puppy price. I wish.

What determines puppy price for a particular litter involves about as many factors as there are people with opinions. One may have the market to get 2K while someone else maybe can't sell the same breeding for 1K.
 
#16 ·
Plenty of MH bred to FC AFC going for way less than 2-2500 too.
 
#19 ·
I never said Bubba was PRA carrier. But there is PRA popping up in field-bred Labs as more and more are being tested for PRA. It would behoove anyone using semen from dogs pre-testing days to make sure their female is clear of everything they can, before breeding to unknowns at best. Some PRA carriers I know have a common thread going to some very popular FT dogs/bitches, and no, don't bother pm-ing me for names. I won't buy anything from anyone without at least one of the parents of a litter being tested clear of EIC/CNM/PRA/RD/OSD, SD, and maybe CMS if I suspect the pedigree. As cheap and easy as it is to test, no excuses not to.
 
#23 ·
According to your HuntingLabPedigree post, you have an EIC cleal dog. Why the hell would you breed to a carrier?? We've been trying to breed these issues OUT of the breed. Not bring them back or recycle them. Plus the majority of your posts talk about money. It appears your interests are in the wrong place.
 
#24 · (Edited)
Some of the best producing dogs ever were EIC carriers. I would not hesitate to breed to an EIC carrier if I felt he was a good match for my clear female. If Lean Mac, Cosmo, Ali, and others had never been bred to, that would have been a shame and the breed would be worse off for it, IMO.
 
#27 ·
I bred my FC/AFC Freeridin Miss Kitty (EIC clear) to FC/AFC Lane's Let's Get Ready to Rumble (EIC carrier), because I thought it was a good fit and I liked the puppies from that breeding.
This time, I will breed Kitty this time to FC/AFC Leica Sabertooth (EIC carrier) because I like the mix of their pedigrees.

Obviously, I don't subscribe to the theory that studs that are EIC carriers should be avoided like the plague.
 
#28 ·
I am right there also on the EIC thing. Actually, given a choice, I will select an EIC carrier puppy over a clear puppy in a breeding. I just think (my opinion, don't blast me) that the carriers run better. The pup I have now, I selected a carrier over a clear, so I put my money where my mouth is :)
 
#39 ·
I just did the same thing. I don't pretend that I have any subjective evidence that supports the theory. It's more like a "hunch" based on observation. More than likely it is completely invalid, but if our pups turn out well, the hunch is validated for a sample of two. ;-)
 
#30 · (Edited)
1) we weren't testing for EIC and CNM when Maxx and Cosmo were being bred so your argument isn't valid. Had we known, they wouldn't have been that popular. 2) "you're going to get destroyed with this comment" ... I'm not interested in popularity. Our responsibility is to breed healthy dogs that improve the breed. Not recycle problems that could mutate again and again. 3) ask yourself what will happen if I don't breed my JH, SH or average dog? What does my (untitled) dog add to the breed? What does she have that most other dogs dont? Will the breed suffer if I dont breed?
 
#31 · (Edited)
You obviously don't have a clue!

EIC carriers are still being bred to and are just as popular.

Breeding an EIC carrier to a clear has 0% chance of producing an affected dog.

If you are concerned about mutations you should be preaching against line breeding not against breeding around genetic diseases we already know about.

Breeding a carrier to clear isn't going to cause some "problem to recycle and mutate again and again"
 
#32 · (Edited)
Wetdog "I will select an EIC carrier puppy over a clear puppy in a breeding. I just think (my opinion, don't blast me) that the carriers run better" Not going to blast you but are you kidding me?
It's called exercise induced collapse for a reason! This is a perfect example of the misunderstanding of the problem. Misinformed owners that keep the disease in the breed or puts it back into the breed once their dog passes a couple of HTs. Pure bred breeding priorities typically are: 1) health clearences 2) previous production of (major stake) titled dogs 3) performance of the breeding bitch. Then and only then do you sell the puppies you don't intend to keep.
 
#34 · (Edited)
#35 ·
Thanks for your offer to educate, but I've spoken with PawPrint, OFA, and Auburn University several times. Plus worked with Pfizer Animal Health for five years. Truth is we can't test for the unknown and only test after a (serious) problem develops. We don't know how or if these mutations will reproduce so why keep or reintroduce a mutation that could effect other cells? They could also develop into a strain that is missed by our current testing. PawPrints article is spot on, however there are plenty of clear, healthy, titled Labrodors in the gene pool spread over a vast array of lineage. Unless the dogs offer superior traits that advance the breed, the risks are too great.
 
#36 ·
I've never heard or read anywhere that a recessive mutation has a greater chance to mutate into something else. That just doesn't make sense. Why would it have a higher risk of mutating vs any other gene?

We've been breeding carriers to clears for a long time with no issues.

The article is pretty clear that the only reason to eliminate carriers from breeding is if you could eliminate the gene entirely. That's not possible with EIC.
 
#43 ·
The only reason to eliminate carriers is if the possibility exists to eliminate the syndrome entirely. That possibility does not exist with EIC.

I have never read or heard anywhere that a mutated gene could somehow affect the cells around it and cause other issues and other mutations....as someone has suggested on this post.

That just doesn't make any sense.
 
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