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Issue with taking "overs" at a distance

6K views 19 replies 16 participants last post by  ufsllabauve@att.net 
#1 ·
I have a two year old dog who I am really happy with in all aspects except one: taking "overs" at a distance.

If I have him in a field doing defined pile work, he takes his hand signals like a champ. Whizzed through pattern blinds. Get him out doing cold blinds and he was progressing quite well. He takes initial lines really well, and with lots of momentum. Recently though, after 50 yards or so, his "overs" hit the skids.

Training partners tell me it's a fairly common thing for younger dogs, but I'd like to nip it in the bud, and address accordingly.

What are your favorite drills for addressing this issue?

Thanks in advance.
 
#2 ·
Sometimes I will sit the dog after a couple failed casts, walk out to the dog to get better cast, ie distance erodes control. Get the cast I want, dog picks up bumper, then I will replace the dog at the same sit spot, walk back to the original line, do the cast at a distance to another bumper at the same place. Now he has completed the cast at a distance. May take a few times to get the message across. When I get a bad cast, I tend to use attrition more than collar, since I feel we are still teaching. But if I give a right over and the dog goes left, that's a different story, and will get a nick.
 
#3 ·
Just a couple of thoughts, if you need to give an Over around 50 yards then I suspect the initial line was not good as it could be. I would increase the distance of your pattern blinds and add factors to keep pup running straight. Use diagonal Backs or right & left Backs to keep pup on line. Ensure good whistle Sits so pup does not get too far off line. Use attrition and close the distance on cast refusals. I do walking baseball frequently on our fitness walks to reinforce casting. This may not be the greatest answer but in my experience Over! is the command you give right before the judges tell you to pick up your dog ! ;)
 
#4 ·
A few years ago I started doing a drill I found on RTF but I can't seem to locate the thread. The goal of the drill was pretty much to help with "overs" but I found the entire drill very useful for carrying casts. It was basically a just a modified Wagon Wheel casting drill on a much larger scale. It was setup with a "straight back pile", and an "angle back right pile" and an "angle back left pile" and then two "over piles." The "back" piles were about 100 yards out from the center (where you would sit dog) and about 20 yards between each pile. The over piles were 40-50 yards from the center of each side. So the dog was having to take "50 yard" overs.

The theory in the RTF post...was that you will never have to take a 50 yard over in a trial (well, if you do, you might as well go to the truck). Anyway, you will also probably not get a dog to take a 50 yard over in a trial anyway. But if you need a 5 yard over at the end of a blind...this drill could potentially save your arse.

Anyway, I loved the drill and while it helped getting "overs" I would say it also really just helped in "carrying casts".

Might not be a drill for you, but it I found it useful.
 
#9 ·
As dogs advance in training over casts become shorter and the meaning of the over cast changes because of how we use it.
Try handling the dog after he picks up a bumper. When the dog has the bumper or bird, all he has to worry about is your casts. I revisit swim by on hot summer days, it's a good way to work on precise casting while keeping the dog cool and happy.
 
#10 · (Edited)
Howard's drill is called the 5 Leg Pattern drill in D. L. Walters' book.

Walters says the straight back and over legs should be about 125 yards and the two angle back legs about 150 yards. He says to run this in a field with very minimal cover and with no steep ditches, etc. When your dog can do this drill without errors, then Walters said you can use the 5 pattern drill as the basis for more complicated casting.

Line Parallel Diagram Triangle


According to Walters, one doesn't run this drill until a dog is performing error free on several drills taught before this, including the 3 Leg pattern drill, which is the first of his drills.
 
#11 ·
So I’ll throw the hat in the ring on this
I m an amateur and train my own mutts
Success is often determined by your peers but the very first one to be satisfied is yourself.
On overs - it’s all relative and you are working with a 2 yr old dog. Use of an over to me says failure because it’s says you waited to long. There is a saying “ back to the blue- over to the truck.
If the dog is offline and say to the right - consider positioning yourself to the right. A straight back is easier to get than an over. The cast to give is a straight back - if the dog doesn’t “ bite “ enough it’s a stop and another straight back and repeat.
If you get consistent the dog will learn quickly the 2nd stop means more bite
This is all different than what’s been described and if I m off base then I apologize. But what I described above works
Keep at it - as he’s two. Another 10,000 blinds and he ll be smoother I promise
Dk
 
#12 ·
One of the obvious unspoken reasons people have problems with overs is because the other casts have force behind them. They can’t unforce them to take an over. It isn’t as simple as that and there are other reasons but it is an unspoken reality? They don’t train for the skill set. It is a skill that isn’t judged.
 
#13 ·
I would suggest "walking baseball"...................since you are transitioning to cold blinds, you can set your over casts with walking baseball however far you need them. And with walking baseball, every over cast as well as back, or angled cast, or inward cast is essentially "cold".
 
#16 · (Edited)
My first dog I used to play at games getting her to take straight overs, at different distances. I'd setup stakes so she had a target to run over too then remove the stakes. That said I haven't done any of that with my younger dogs. Why, because You don't really need a dog to carry long overs when the dogs way out there; if a dog is that far off you're probably already in the truck headed home. Only time I actually used these were when a bunch of us would play blind dog golf and inventive people would setup Par 3-5 holes with dog-legs in them. The cast is a neat trick, not very useful in HT or FT, although I have used it hunting (ex. needing a dog to hunt-run a bank to hunt a cripple); never being trained on it most dogs will pick it up quickly while hunting. These days I do teach pressured overs, and I do do swim-by on both water and land, but those are rather close up. I figure you do need a powerful pressured OVER in you arsenal; just as you need a pressured Back. Example OVER into the water, or a short over on land after a very bad initial line; that is carried close up but overs at a distance, seems you more likely to be needing angled backs. How would I teach them? Same way I teach any dog to carry any long line, I'd put out stakes as a target and teach the dog to cast the different angles then remove the stakes.
 
#20 ·
Best drill in the world for this problem. Ur probably boxing him in on cold blinds meaning ur giving him too many whistles on each side of the blind line. He’s prob changing directions up close and ur giving him a bunch of whistles so he’s a little confused as to what he’s suppose to do.

Remember silent cast are to change direction and verbal will drive him deep. So when ur asking him to change direction use a silent cast.

Drill

Go out into an open field

Line roughly 20 to 30 bumpers in about a 100 yard line.

Back off a hundred or so yards and send him. The bumpers will be in a perpendicular line from the running line. If u wanna work on changing directions give him the cast u wanna work on once he takes it let him go. He’ll eventually run into one of the bumpers on ur line. Remember all u want is a change of direction. Don’t be too critical if it’s not exactly what u want. The only thing he’s not allowed to do is continue in the same direction he was going prior to the cast. He will get so confident in changing directions that eventually u can tweak him with different cast. It also works great with dogs and their initial lines. Line ur bumpers up and send him he’ll get so confident after he lines a week of blinds. It’s great on water as well. I use this a lot while transitioning dogs to cold blinds.
 
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