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The game

9K views 40 replies 26 participants last post by  Phil Cross 
#1 ·
Ok Hillmann folks I have a question I hope you can help me with. I have a new to me 3year old male and I am working on building the game. I am wanting to use a bumper or paint roller. Right now he is absolutely nuts about a tennis ball type toy and more mild about bumpers and paint rollers. Can I build that type of drive toward them? Any suggestions? THANKS!
 
#3 ·
#6 ·
Well first off I just gotta say your about 2 years and 10 months behind the GAME. I don't charge $100/hr and my advice is free so take it for what its worth. Get rid of the tennis balls and never let him see another one the rest of his life!!! Also forget the paint roller and just start playing with bumpers and real birds on occasion, bumpers way more than birds for now.
 
#20 ·
Get rid of the tennis balls and never let him see another one the rest of his life!!! Also forget the paint roller and just start playing with bumpers and real birds on occasion, bumpers way more than birds for now.
This would have sufficed.

I would offer you a slice of humble pie, unfortunately there is none available.
 
#7 ·
Thank you to kwicklabs for the helpful lonks. I appreciate it. Steve Shaver thank you for your criticism. I am glad it is free. If you go back and read carefully you will see why I am as you put it behind the game. The dog is new to me!!! I have had him 2 weeks. Thanks for being so helpful there. You have reminded me of why I do not come here much and have further reminded me to not waste my time here anymore. What a helpful place for people to come and learn about training. Thanks for nothing.
 
#14 ·
WELL EXCUUUUUSSSE ME!!!!!!!!!

Sorry didn't mean to make you cry I was truly trying to be helpful. You have reminded me why I should not bother coming here either!! No need to worry Im done with this internet dog training BS. Im taking my tennis ball and go play somewhere else. Love to say a whole lot more here but what I have to say would just get deleted anyway. What a baby.
 
#10 ·
tennis balls are a difficult 'toy' to beat. Your dog has 3 yrs of tennis balls. Maybe he was never required to be steady and no other constrictions surrounding them either... If that is the case, it is going to take patience on your part.... something I do with young pups is attach a bumper to a 10 to 20 foot length of line. Toss it and drag it.... let the pup chase and catch. This might help replicate the 'rolling/bouncing' tennis ball action, at least in the short term, until he realizes bumpers are fun too.


Continue working on obedience and adjusting to his new life. If you are trying to make him be steady to the thrown bumper, don't. Treat him just as you would if he were an 8 week old pup. Build up the excitement and enthusiasm... odds are he will always prefer a tennis ball (most dogs do).....

I am truly amazed no one has suggested force fetch yet... LOL (please don't).
 
#11 ·
What Tobias said.
Problem of asking for free advice is it's free. With free comes no accountability.
Put away the tennis ball and make the game all about bumpers. Chances are your dog will figure out what is supposed to be fun. Best of luck. Please be patient with your dog. There may be lots of old habits to break.
 
#12 · (Edited)
AA, I am older than most on here and feel a bit of advice might be helpful. Many years ago, I took a young, very talented
retriever to a new Pro friend for some advice. Taffey was running Finished HRC which means she was attempting advanced
"stuff". He watched politely for quite awhile and I asked several times "What do you think?" As we continued, I got no replies.

Finally, I asked (patience wearing thin), "Why don't you just tell me what's wrong? That's why I came here!"

After a long pause.....he said, "Well..It's not the dog."

My reply was, "I kind of knew that. But, why did you wait so long to tell me?"

His reply was significant. "Because most clients don't want to be told the truth."

Only then did we get more specific.

Which may be a round about way to let you know, it is better to take things with a grain of salt and to sort out intentions
and advice that may seem too frank. Dealing with advice on training forums requires skills most do not have without
practice. Forum posts are often not even close to a personal, two way, "give and take" conversation.

Frustration is mostly self-inflicted. Don't ask me how I know that.
 
#13 ·
In addition to Tobias's suggestions, I would add in a large dose of clipped wing pigeons to build the prey drive. Just don't overdo it until you have done your hold and FF training.
 
#15 ·
Well, I tried to point out that "working a forum" is not easy.

Then, I thought about posting this link......but I resisted.....some....not enough I guess..

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/don't_let_the_door_hit_you_on_the_way_out

This is a friendly jab.....you are supposed to take it that way.


Later in the day, I thought your issue might prove to be the stimulus for analyzing my training
with Hillmann's approach over the last several years. It proved to be useful (at least for me).

The training forums continue to have threads dealing with training a pup using Hillmann. The most recent
one began with having an issue of barking at a thrown bumper. The significant aspect about the Hillmann
approach is that thrown bumpers are NOT part of the process…..early on. The following YouTube with Mary
Tatum clarifies that point. The puppy in the YouTube was doing his very first sessions of “The Game” at
almost three week old. That is not a misprint. It progresses through three timely spaced intervals of training.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KaIfY-fBa4

After doing Hillmann with two pups, the obvious has become clearer. The two I have were/are different
(higher than a kite vs a little more subdued) and both were older by several weeks. Whatever situation
surfaces with the next pup (if there is one), adjusting training will be much simpler. Each training session
lesson is determined by doing what a pup needs in the moment (especially in the beginning).

For example, If a pup is barking at a bumper when it is on the ground, then reduce those types of
repetitions and keep the pup more engaged (with you while a bumper is in his mouth or being held by
the trainer). Less of "this" and more of "that" is the key to balance. That is somewhat like the concept
of “bumper in mouth” training. How teaching proceeds is determined by what a pup needs (and they are
not all the same).

Keeping a dog in balance is a function of five factors - retrieving, "birdiness”/bumpers, responsiveness,
focus and control. Any puppy barking at tossed bumpers is getting too much retrieving/"bumpers" and
not enough of the other three (which are greatly impacted by distance).

The following is a significant concept. Go back and review Mary Tatum’s YouTube (which covers several
weeks of sessions), the first several day sessions were NOT involved in any retrieving (tossed bumpers).
Resist the urge. The focus is purely on responsiveness and focus - engagement. Once those are introduced,
and regularly demonstrated...then control begins to gradually fall into place and only then is training
enhanced by the excitement of retrieving and "birdiness”/bumpers

To repeat, the Hillmann puppy approach begins by developing exciting focus, control and responsiveness on
a short lead. Once a pup is initially “hooked up”, engaged and practicing with the trainer, only then do you
begin retrieves (not many, very short ones to start with). The process is best when it is sequential and seamless.

You must become the center or your pup's universe.

One must resist the urge to watch a pup charge out and attack something…until other “stuff” is in place.
When a poorly engaged pup runs “out there on his own”, the decision about what to do next becomes his
and developing engagement (responsiveness) often turns into a problem.

Balancing engagement up close first is the key. To repeat, more of this and less of that is the key to balance.
What each pup needs in the moment is not universal. It is the trainer's responsibility to determine what the
pup needs. Puppy barking at thrown bumper is saying, "I am not engaged with you!" Establishing balance
is not in the pup's job description.
 
#26 ·
Nice to know I'm missed! *a single tear rounds down my cheek*

Training professionally 28 years now and just talking with Chris A and we figured out we were on the original RTF around 1997....

If anything I'm more curious about training concepts and thinking outside the box now than I ever was. Something that I'm sure would cause a fair bit of cognitive dissonance around here.

Not professionally, I started working with some K9/protection/bite dogs a few years ago and now own a couple Malinois along with my lab and pointer. Clearly not a serious retriever trainer. ;-)

Thanks for thinking of me and play nice.
 
#27 ·
This is what's great about internet dog training or the internet in general , you do not have to look a person the face , you can simply write your reply and move on .

Was Steves advice helpful , in my opinion no. Could be reality but depending on what Ace wants to do with his pup , if he simply wants to transition the pup over to retrieving bummpers and possibly birds , very doable. The fact that the pup is crazy to retrieve tennis balls demonstrates some prey drive.

I often read threads on RTF about the lack of participation , well we can foster participation or we can simply write snippy little replies and then we will have the same 6 folks participating.
 
#28 ·
Alec, if you ever find yourself in the southeastern part of the country, i would love the chance to spend some time with you. I love your attitude and outlook on training.
 
#31 ·
I know the topic of this thread went sideways somewhere on page 1, but I'll offer my advice on the OP.
I have heard of a few people using a "tennis ball like bumper" to make the transition to real bumpers. The texture and color make the dog at ease since they are familiar. But the shape helps the transition. Once they are good with this dummy, then a few weeks later start working in regular bumpers.

https://www.chewy.com/kong-airdog-fetch-stick-rope-dog-toy/dp/44295
 
#38 ·
....
I have heard of a few people using a "tennis ball like bumper" to make the transition to real bumpers. The texture and color make the dog at ease since they are familiar. But the shape helps the transition........]
Doesn't the glue that holds the fuzz on the tennis ball do something bad to the dogs? Cancer or poison or something or other? I would just go straight to wing clipped pigeons.
 
#33 ·
I don't think an apology necessary Steve.. just clarification.. written communication is or can be a difficult method of expressing one's thoughts so that others grasp the meaning. Just look at how written (and spoken) words are misunderstood and put on spin every day. Heck - even someone I consider a friend here totally takes my words and puts them in her own spin cycle.
 
#36 · (Edited)
IMHO to the OP..

You NOW have to figger out a way to make the BUMPER WAY more special or fun ,,than a toy or ball.. My dog retrieves toys,balls, hammers, backpacks, woodscraps.. birds.. She will sweep the shop floor.. I have pictures..

You must find a way to make that bumper special..

It may just be, taking the dog on walks away from where you play with toys,,and making those walks in a special place fun.. Gradually workin thowing a bumper.. You may need to become a very happy and animated person when Bumpers are involved! Not some statue!! PRAISE PRAISE PRAISE!!! MAKE THAT BUMPER SPECIAL!! MAKE it SPECIAL to YOU! Store it in a closet,,and show the dog that's where you go to get it before the walks.. pretty soon,, I bet the dog sits at the closet door waiting for you to open it.. Be a FUN GUY!! :) Wear a speedo when you train!! It really helped me!!

Dont give the dog a bunch of throws once it thinks the walks and bumper are fun.. make that bumper her special "TOY"

As you get into the training,, you will get to a step that will take the "Ask" outa the situation,,and the sun will indeed shine brighter..

You will need thick skin... To protect you from the dogs rebellion,,and the good natured people, that only want to help.. Some are just really "passionate"

Gooser

P.S.. Thick skin,and BIG ears!
 
#37 ·
Here's one thing I've used to make bumpers more appealing to a young or ineperienced dog: Go to a local park and pick up a few freshly shed Canada goose feathers (the ones that look like quill pens, not the down!); Attach them to the bumper with a few rubber bands or durable tape. Usually (but not always) this—combined with a voice filled with excitement and waving the bumper around—has done the trick for me.
 
#40 ·
An old Pro/Breeder I once bought a pup from and trained with was adamant about never using sticks or balls with retrievers that are going to play the game.

His claim was "it will cause problems."

Neve fully explained the problems, just constantly told us that.
In fact, in a hand out with his puppies, he specifically addressed the issue with a full paragraph.
If I can find it, I'll take a picture and post it.

Not a solution, just an old schoolers approach.

I like (and have used) the idea of starting with paint rollers.
Not heavy, easy on the teeth.

Generate some excitement with them.
 
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