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Momentum #1 Ingredient?

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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
#1 source of "momentum"?

No doubt you will be able to add different choices to this list but here we go! Which of these sources do you feel provides your animal with the most "day in day out" momentum to continue without suffering burn out (within reason) to hunt hard, train/drill and test/trial with never ending bottom end/drive?
Peake
PS No need to break out the Websters he isn't a registered RTF user! :wink:
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No brainer to me, sneak-a-Peake. Genetics as #1. Can't squeeze blood from a turnip, no matter how hard you try. Birds, training, etc just enhances or brings out what's already in them.
 

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I think it's genetics too, but beyond that it's not that the pedigree is going to transcend to every dog in the litter. Some dogs just have that extra, innate "something". It's the "need" to retrieve. More than just marking-it's a combination of nose & perseverance-doing whatever it takes to get the bird (or bumper).

I sooooo don't want to get into training philosophies-I don't know half the stuff you guys (& gals) have forgotten already, but I do love the dog that hasn't been forced who shows every bit as much heart & desire as the fully trained dogs.

M
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
duckwild,
You know I thought about that one and does Genetics supply "momentum" or simply the "desire" to start with at square one? I really wasn't sure and not splitting hairs here maybe it's both so I'll let the poll decide?
Peake
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The question, as asked, infers the universal acceptance of what momentum is. That will tend to skew the results. I voted "Other".

Prey drive is not, necessarily momentum, but should certainly be considered a prime source. Still, many dogs with an abundance of prey drive have poor momentum, even though they possess good style.

? Style: One of the Webster?s dictionary definitions of style is ?showiness?. This is a term used to describe the speed, spirit, or enthusiasm with which a dog moves (going out and back) during a retrieve.
? Momentum: 1) the force possessed by a moving body 2) Gain against resistance. In a retriever, this is a term that describes the force (via frame of mind) that maintains compulsion from the dogs? point of origin (point of ?send?, point of cast, etc.).

*Sorry, Peake. I'm a nut for defining terms.

Being a drive-producing quality, momentum is best described as a trait acquired through both genetics and conditioning; force methodology.

Evan
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Evan said:
? Style: One of the Webster?s dictionary definitions of style is ?showiness?. This is a term used to describe the speed, spirit, or enthusiasm with which a dog moves (going out and back) during a retrieve.
? Momentum: 1) the force possessed by a moving body 2) Gain against resistance. In a retriever, this is a term that describes the force (via frame of mind) that maintains compulsion from the dogs? point of origin (point of ?send?, point of cast, etc.).

*Sorry, Peake. I'm a nut for defining terms.
Evan
Now how did I know he was gonnah do that??? :roll: :p
Good Training Evan :D
Peake
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Genetics.

Ever heard this: "You can take it out of 'em (the "go"), but you can't put it into 'em"?

Sure, you can enhance it, but if it's not there at birth, it's not gonna be there at all. Maturity and the differences there notwithstanding, of course.

Keith G.
 

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dogs

I voted other. To me, #1 is CONFIDENCE. A dog that is conditioned with it, will run at full-speed on blinds as well as marks! A dog whelped with a ton of desire helps, but what happens to that high-roller when they lose their confidence? It is another reason why I don't like to rush a pup and will hold his training back until they mature a bit more. I want the youngster absolutly charging into the area of the fall or fly to the pile in early yard work. When you see a 14 month old running at full speed on a cold blind, I can assure you that it is his confidence over desire that makes him a joy to watch!
 

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In physics momentum is the product of 2 quantities (mass and velocity). I think the same applies here. You GOT to have the genetics, but in some manner it needs nurturing.
 

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Interesting fact.....if two dogs are moving at the same velocity, the one which "weighs" more has greater momentum. Even if the big dog were slower, he still could have more momentum than a smaller faster dog. In physics "jargon" a change in momentum can only occur if there is an applied force. Aha, the secret to force training. However, force can, also, reduce momentum. Thus, it must be the correct application of force. Do judges take that into account when evaluating style? Do trainers truly always apply the correct force? I believe all judges and trainers should be required to have a basic course in physics. :shock: :lol:
 

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I voted for genetics because I so agree with "you can take it out, but can't put it in if it doesn't exist"...but think all the choices come into play if the genetics are there.

Wondering if anyone had ever FF a non-retrieving breed (not counting spaniels and pointers and other sporting, hunting breeds) and what the results were....
 

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I force fetched a Bozo...er Borzoi. Not for birds, but for obedience. FF was used quite a bit extensively during the 80s and 90s for that sport, which is populated by-and-large by non-retrieving breeds. Wonder how reliable the retrieves are with the new clicker-only methods?

Lisa
 

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ok then... bringing it back to the physics definition..
mass: nature.. assuming proper diet and exercise
velocity: 2 parts to this: how fast is the dog ABLE to go (nature)
and how fast the dog TRIES to go (nature and nurture)
 

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I also voted other. I couldn't vote gentics because I have a Mutt who doesn't have them but you should see him hunt, retrieve, run blinds....I would lean toward that it is a combination of everything. Imagine if you will a top bred lab, has the genetics, but owner turns dog into house pet, never exposes this dog to birds, hunting, retriever games whatever. Another person has a pup from same litter, exposes dog to birds, plays retriever games, but is very, very forcefull with corrections, dog turns out piggy, shows signs of not liking doing what it is doing, but does it anyway. So I think its a little of everything, too many factors involved and near impossible to pin point it to one in my opinion.

FOM
 

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Swampcollie said:
Genetics.
Training will help to bring it out and polish it, but if it ain't there to begin with you can't put it in.
Okay, genetics folks, here goes! Meet George.


His registered name was Stonehenge Vanilla Cream JH. Yes, JH. He retrieved hundreds of ducks over his lifetime while hunting for my old friend Will. George was the first dog Will brought me to train for him. All show dogs in his pedigree for four generations, and not a single ounce of prey drive! I never met another Labrador retriever with such a total absence of retrieving desire. But old George was completely indifferent to anything falling or being thrown for him.

We did all the enticements known to mankind, played all the games, attempted the many ploys a pro keeps up his/her sleeve for such animals ? all to no avail. Will loved him and wanted him to be whatever measure of gundog I could make of him, so we had a heart-to-heart talk about what that might entail, and what it may produce.

To be brief, I put George through a complete course of basics, ala Rex Carr, mixing ample praise for compliance/success, to which he responded especially well. He was a very sweet dog, and loved to please. He just had no natural interest in fetching/retrieving.

After all phases of basics, including Water Force and Swim-by, George was retrieving reliably and beginning to enjoy it. He gained a fair amount of style for a 110 pound dog, but style is one characteristic, and momentum is another. Style may be cultivated, but they?ll have whatever is their own share of it.

Momentum most certainly can be trained into a dog. I?ve done it!

Evan
 

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Approximately 70,000 labs are registered every year with the AKC, give or take...I think that's pretty close.

Every year.

It does not surprise me that momentum can be trained into one.

One...

...or maybe even several.

I guess it depends on what a person wants to accomplish. Had that been my dog, I'd have have been seriously inclined to wash it out and find a new home for it, but I'm not looking for a capable gun dog...I want a "player."

If you have to "train" momentum into a dog to make it a "player," I'm not sure that's the dog I'd want.

But then, that's just me... :wink: ...

Keith G.
 

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I'm with you, Keith. And that was my advice to Will. But George was his first dog and he was already nuts about him. I'm not pleased about advancing this dogs career this way, but it does make a point about momentum.

I want the player - the one born with fire in his little eyes! :shock:

Evan
 

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Well, don't try and stop me, you can argue all you want with me, but I'm gonna have to agree with Even on this one. I know, what is the world coming to but I've seen it done as well. I might as well freeze hell completely over and agree with Keith on the numbers statistics thing as well. I train with a gal that focuses on mostly show dogs and she constantly gets good momentum out of her dogs. Don't tell me how she stands it, but it can be trained into them.

I don't have the patience myself to do it, but I have to admire her courage... :lol:

/Paul
 
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