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They already have kinda, they’ve had the guns come out for more than one dog after getting 3 good and starting to handle never allowing the dog to get the fourth bird. So you’re going to call back dogs that have a 3rd handle but got all 4 birds? Very inconsistent
I'm not sure I addressed a 3rd handle but that would be up to the judges.
I was addressing the fact that they have the numbers under control. They
are in the position that 2 handles & no further mistakes could be dropped
when those dogs are no longer considered to be in contention.
 

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Discussion Starter · #242 ·
I'm not sure I addressed a 3rd handle but that would be up to the judges.
I was addressing the fact that they have the numbers under control. They
are in the position that 2 handles & no further mistakes could be dropped
when those dogs are no longer considered to be in contention.
Achieving numbers and achieving them in an equitable way should not be mutually exclusive.
 
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6 - No H
15 - 1 H
6 - 2 H
 

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I was struggling trying to keep track of who/what/etc. So I made this.... Hopefully no errors in this (I make no promises)...but this is what I have by looking at the blog titles (so if a dog has a "handle" in there somewhere that is not identified on the title of their run..I would have missed it, I did not read every single run)....

Font Parallel Screenshot Rectangle Number
 

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6 - No H
15 - 1 H
6 - 2 H
This says a lot after 6! I have resisted commenting-although the comments have been entertaining!
I have always said the easiest tests to set are those everybody can do and those almost nobody can do. It is a challenge to find the right level of test for the field. I recently ran all-age stakes with lesser competition than this National by far, when 1 of 11 did with out H or PU and another when nobody did without H, HH or PU! Is this the new trend?
After 50 years judging all-age stakes, author and co-author of multi-articles on judging principles on Retriever News, Retrievers Online and Workshops both sides of the border, I get frustrated! I surely hope we are not seeing a new trend!
Rather, I hope we will see an effort by judges to become experienced enough to predict better outcomes, pursue the principles of fair and reasonably equitable although challenging set-ups, and avoid tests that are extreme; but produce variability of results! I personally think this takes being a student, a lot of experience; both of which are aided by setting up, observing and remembering your own set-ups. There are some that learn from observation and from mentoring!
I know these judges and was surprised at certain concepts (dogs obviously were!) but I suspect cover and other constraints have been a factor in their tests! But as I said above I hope this is not a new trend!
 

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Dennis. Good to see you voice your opinion. Over the past three years, I have noticed a disturbing trend towards exceedingly difficult tests - and/or exceptionally high standards - in small Amateur stakes (less than 40 dogs). For example, the judges start with 30 dogs and return with 13 to the second series land blind. It is very discouraging to me and I am battle hardened. I cannot imagine what it is like for a beginner. I don't know if the National begets the weekend, or the weekend begets the National.
 

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Dennis. Good to see you voice your opinion. Over the past three years, I have noticed a disturbing trend towards exceedingly difficult tests - and/or exceptionally high standards - in small Amateur stakes (less than 40 dogs). For example, the judges start with 30 dogs and return with 13 to the second series land blind. It is very discouraging to me and I am battle hardened. I cannot imagine what it is like for a beginner. I don't know if the National begets the weekend, or the weekend begets the National.
I guess we’ll see after this national concludes
 

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Dennis. Good to see you voice your opinion. Over the past three years, I have noticed a disturbing trend towards exceedingly difficult tests - and/or exceptionally high standards - in small Amateur stakes (less than 40 dogs). For example, the judges start with 30 dogs and return with 13 to the second series land blind. It is very discouraging to me and I am battle hardened. I cannot imagine what it is like for a beginner. I don't know if the National begets the weekend, or the weekend begets the National.
Ted!
As you so well know, you and I together have made a major effort to discuss widely principles and concepts of sound judging which included the "Judges Fundamentals and Checklist!" (Retriever Field Trial Judging Fundamentals and Checklist.). Re Nationals, you have previously made pleas for maintaining some of the time-honored and proven practices and traditions. I agree with an understanding that these are not inviolate or written in stone! I am carefully watching this end result. Conceivably some dog will have a great week and all else will be forgiven? Will this affect future Nationals?
Regards
 

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Ted!
As you so well know, you and I together have made a major effort to discuss widely principles and concepts of sound judging which included the "Judges Fundamentals and Checklist!" (Retriever Field Trial Judging Fundamentals and Checklist.). Re Nationals, you have previously made pleas for maintaining some of the time-honored and proven practices and traditions. I agree with an understanding that these are not inviolate or written in stone! I am carefully watching this end result. Conceivably some dog will have a great week and all else will be forgiven? Will this affect future Nationals?
Regards
To me, the two handles and you are out was inviolate. It gave predictability to the process. Now, who knows? I doubt we will ever return to that standard. As for the difficulty of the tests, that has been steadily increasing for the past four years. I doubt that trend will abate. Yes, some deserving dog will win. But, does that excuse the process that led to that dog's win? Count me heavily discouraged.
 

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When Ted, Ed, and Dennis are posting, I think everyone stops to read and listen. But tradition? Heck, here is the King Buck at a national video.

Evolution just is, whether we want it to be or not.


A timed retrieve in a national competition would be interesting.
 

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It's not the same. The dogs are better. The tests are harder. That's evolution. But, we are now seeing tests that annihilate the dogs. It's unnecessary. Anyone can make good dogs look bad. The question is why? What are the consequences of annihilating the field year after year? Pretty soon, people decide to do something else with their spare time. If you think that is a good idea, well lucky you.
 

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It's not the same. The dogs are better. The tests are harder. That's evolution. But, we are now seeing tests that annihilate the dogs. It's unnecessary. Anyone can make good dogs look bad. The question is why? What are the consequences of annihilating the field year after year? Pretty soon, people decide to do something else with their spare time. If you think that is a good idea, well lucky you.
Okay--so I hoped to engage you. :) Is it that the marks are too tight? Is the cover too heavy? I actually have a friend there (not running a dog but an AFC owner) and she says the grounds are "unexpectedly difficult." Is it the tests, the grounds, or a combination?
 

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Glad to see Dennis post ! I had a stack of
“Onlines” in my hand yesterday.
The only 10 people happy are the end of the National are the Winner, the judges and the committee( cause it’s over)
I appreciate all that gather in eager anticipation of the beginning, I appreciate the small army of workers who come on thier own nickel and labor to put the event on; I appreciate the judges whom no matter what they do will not please all yet they show up tomorrow and as crazy as it seems. I appreciate the tradition that brings me some satisfaction that the world is not completely mad. After all it’s dogs picking up birds and it’s not much more complicated than that.
Just me and I m drinking and musing
Dk
 

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When Ted, Ed, and Dennis are posting, I think everyone stops to read and listen. But tradition? Heck, here is the King Buck at a national video.

Evolution just is, whether we want it to be or not.


A timed retrieve in a national competition would be interesting.
As some of you know, I am a retired wildife research scientist so obviously I support evolution occurs. Our FT game has evolved immensely in dog quality, handling, training and overall judging! There is no comparison with the Nationals of decades ago! Some of my two olds could have finished them! That is not the point!
It is extremely challenging to address 100 of todays top dogs and separate them fairly to find the best Finalists! It is hard to avoid 1-2 set-ups that are undesirable and split tests because of numbers that are a curse for judges or competitors.
Timed retrieves are a non-starter! I started to list the reasons and gave up after 6th when it could have been 10!
 

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Okay. So what should a judge do?

You have 100 dogs who are obviously talented enough to qualify for the National Amateur championship. What if you set up a FIRST test in which 2/3 of the dogs handle and 1/3 do not? So 33 of the dogs could do the test without a handle and 66 could not. Is that a fault of your test or the dogs? One third of the dogs didn't need to be handled--so obviously the test could be done without a handle. What does that mean?

Are you saying each dog should be carried for a minimum of like 2-3 series, except for obvious reasons like not finding a bird on a mark, failing to go, etc.?

I'm just asking. I will never have a dog at this level.
 

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It's not the same. The dogs are better. The tests are harder. That's evolution. But, we are now seeing tests that annihilate the dogs. It's unnecessary. Anyone can make good dogs look bad. The question is why? What are the consequences of annihilating the field year after year? Pretty soon, people decide to do something else with their spare time. If you think that is a good idea, well lucky you.
It drives me to train better and harder. Drives my wife who is running our dog to be better. I'm listening to the Pros here watching the tests and I was surprised to hear commentary about how they liked watching the dog work on the tests and that they were more interesting than past years test in other regions. It's contrary to a lot of dialog. But, dialog isn't here, people are and the audience is 100% captivated. Good or bad.
 
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