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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My 5 month old started out doing pretty well on land retrieves. Coming back close enough to snag her on the check cord. The last few weeks she has become more comfortable and decided that she likes the keep away game. She seems to have pretty good drive and pushes out hard to get the bumper and runs pretty hard returning but veers off line about 10 yards out and the game is on.
I need some suggestions for getting her back for another month or so until I can get through formal OB and inforce the here command on retrieves and not create bad habints in the mean time.
Any suggestions appreciated.
 

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I either walk or run away from the pup, most of the time they will follow. Or just get another bumper out start swing it around. Pup might drop the one they have, no big deal. Toss the one your swinging and pick the other up. You might also limit the number of retrieves and days in a row you throw them bumpers. Keep the pups excitement really high!
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
ok I will try the 2nd bumper thing that may work. I guess I was concerned that I need her to come directly back with praise before being rewarded with another retrieve. I have been limiting bumper retrieves in the field to 4-5 per session and about 3 days per week right now. I have been working on her delivery with short tennis ball retrieves in the garage more often though. Basically throw the ball down beside of us with a fetch command 5 or so times in a session. I thought about keeping her from the field for a week or so and just work on this until she gets the idea that the fun keeps going when she brings it back to me. Let me know how off I am with this thinking though.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
so follow CC program then use on here command for retrieves? Following 10 minute retriever and have fowl dawgs 1 coming in the mail tomorrow. Wasn't planning on this for at least another month but maybe it is time?
 

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so follow CC program then use on here command for retrieves? Following 10 minute retriever and have fowl dawgs 1 coming in the mail tomorrow. Wasn't planning on this for at least another month but maybe it is time?
Unlike the other programs "Smartworks" does CC to here (only) prior to formal OB.
He then goes into formal OB and follows the same flow cahrt as othe Carr based programs.
CC to the other commands comes after FF.



Bert
 

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CC to hear
 

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when you CC to here with Evan's method, which we have done, do you then use the collar on very low setting/continous on retreives? IE command come when he makes the retrieve and use the collar to force the response? I asked Evan in a PM, but haven't heard back. I don't want any bad associations with retrieving....
 

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Start with a long rope, and just reel her in first. Use the rope whenever she is out so she learns to come whenever called. I recommend Lardy's CC program, which starts with a rope and choke collar, to teach her first. Then transition to the e-collar but I five months I wouldn't be in a rush to the e-collar.
 

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when you CC to here with Evan's method, which we have done, do you then use the collar on very low setting/continous on retreives? IE command come when he makes the retrieve and use the collar to force the response? I asked Evan in a PM, but haven't heard back. I don't want any bad associations with retrieving....
Not a good idea.

I took a break from marks for a few days when I did it. The 1st time we ran marks after it was done Gidgit turned on a dime and head back to me the second she heard the whistle. Never a 2nd thought since.

Bert
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
okay, pup is almost 7 months old now and still having issues. I'm getting pretty frustrated with this not coming back and making big laps with the dummy in her mouth trying to get the chase game going. After a few suggestions of CC to here, I still have not done this, mainly because I don't have a collar yet. I am a couple weeks away from force fetch. My pup gets fixed tomorrow so we will be out of commission for a little bit (how long?).

Will a successful force fetch and collar conditioning clear up this matter of returning on retrieves? I'm following fowl dawgs and in his formal obedience section prior to ff.
 

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so follow CC program then use on here command for retrieves? Following 10 minute retriever and have fowl dawgs 1 coming in the mail tomorrow. Wasn't planning on this for at least another month but maybe it is time?
Lardy's CC doesn't typically start until after FF and simple casting. I attended a Lardy clinic and he addressed the issue. He will CC to here out if order if he can't get a dog to return by conventional means. Also, to me it is not practical to have a 150 yards of rope on the dog.

I put a 7 month old dog through Hillman's program more or less. He uses a low (1st notch above zero) setting to collar condition or reinforce sit early on (maybe 12 weeks or so). I found as I moved to using the here command off lead, I could use the same very low nick to get a recall. I've heard this, or similar, collar work for here referred to as "bending". Not full CC to here, but effective in getting a reliable recall. Only took a couple weekends needing the collar nicks before I could air her witjout a collar and do long retrieves and get a recall under any distraction.
 

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Here's a stupid question: Does your dog really know the "here" command? Forget about coming back with a bumper or bird for a moment and ask yourself this question.

Does your dog come to you from 50/100/150 yards away without any bumper or bird? Teach your dog this command in a positive manner so the dog understands, then add pressure to reinforce the learned lesson. How do you tell if your dog has learned? Read your dog. Look at what he/she is actually doing in response to the - supposed - learned command. Keep teaching until the dog consistantly does the behavior you are teaching it.

In short (and without further explanation): Teach with "positive", reinforce what was learned with "negative".
 

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when you CC to here with Evan's method, which we have done, do you then use the collar on very low setting/continous on retreives? IE command come when he makes the retrieve and use the collar to force the response? I asked Evan in a PM, but haven't heard back. I don't want any bad associations with retrieving....
Before you're done with the CC process per Smartwork, you switch to nicks toward the end of the drill work. From then on you reinforce "Here" with nicks coupled with the command.


If you follow the whole outline for this you will have conventionally taught the command well before CC to it.

Evan
 

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I would think it would be impossible for a longer rope not to work.

Use the rope until you don't need the rope anymore, and then use it some more.
 

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First piece of advice, which you have already gotten several times, is DO NOT give in to the temptation to chase the pup. If you do it is game on. When you see the pup start to go into chase mode, simply turn and run the other way. It may work even better if you turn and run the other way just as she turns with the mark and spots you. That way, you can potentially avoid the whole chase thing and turn "here" into a fun game using the pup's natural instinct to chase movement. All the while making coming back to where you are the coolest thing ever. This is really the teaching part, as you are teaching the pup that coming back to you after picking up an object is just what the pup does - a natural behavior.

Then, get a 30 - 40' rope and make a loop on one end. When you pass the rope back through the loop, voila - a "choke rope." Throw short retrieves, and use short tugs on the rope to really start teaching the command. "Here" tug "here" a few times ought to do the trick. Then, if she reverts to old habits, do the same thing to start to enforce "here." Make sure you have some gloves on. Rope burn really hurts. This is really a mild force, so the second part of my mantra above. IOW, now that the pup knows he is supposed to come back to you on "here," we start to insist on it and in fact ingrain it - make it a compulsion instead of a desire, if that makes sense - because at some point we will want the pup to do this in the face of distractions. You eventually want your pup to have one thought in his head once the fetch object is in his mouth - "I have to get back there to my handler ASAP."

The reinforce would be eventually done with nicks as Evan pointed out previously, once you have CCd your pup. I would consider initially chaining the collar stimulus together with the rope tug - something the pup already understands - to make it as easy for him to understand the proper reaction to the collar pressure as possible. This will also help him understand that the pressure is comng from you, not some random event. It would also start to explain to him that he can turn pressure off with compliance, which FF will show him for sure.

Good luck with your pup.
 

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I would think it would be impossible for a longer rope not to work.

Use the rope until you don't need the rope anymore, and then use it some more.
Have you ever run a dog on a 150 yard mark on a rope? I bought one of those cord reels and held it as my dog stripped off 1/4 nylon rope. Worked like a champ until the rope started catching on every tiny clump of brush or stick in the field. It's really not practical once beyond puppy marks.
 

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this might be a stupid question but i'm assuming the "here" command and the "come" command are the same correct? i was always taught to use "come" because "here" sounded too much like "heel" (just like i wanted to name my dog "jack" but it sounded too much like "back")

my pup brings the dummy back very well and if i see him start to hesitate on his return (tall grass, bee. bird you know normal puppy distractions) i turn my back and walk away and dont look back. within 2-3 seconds he's on my heels with dummy in hand trying to catch up and bring me the dummy.

my pup has "come" down pat when we work on simple obedience in the house. but if he's retrieving and i say "come" occasionally he drops what he's doing and comes (i'm thinking its because of the treat/obedience training he thinks he's getting a retreat which at this point in his life is more important than retrieving). this usually means the dummy gets left behind so he can hurry up and come. i'm assuming FF will teach him never to leave a dummy behind so i usually just throw another retrieve if he leaves it behind trying to obey commands. is this a good strategy? or should i just let him bring it without trying to command him?
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
i believe my big problem lies in the fact that I went from short puppy hallway retrieves to slinging the bumper in the field as far as I could throwr. My progression on distance jumped quite a bit in a short time with not alot of focus in between on the complete retrieve, I guess I got jacked up on the fact that my pup would fly out to the bumper at about any distance, and lost focus on the 2nd most important part, coming back. I beleive I am going to take a couple of weeks and start back with the advice of rookie trainer and keep my throws short, and use the rope to enforce the here command. Then slowly work out from there (patience)
 
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