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Once (correctly) F-F'd always F-F'd?


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Peake said:
What is your view on the poll topic? Could it be even the most solid conditioned retrieve Dawg needs the occasional refresher or "once done always done"???
I'm not smart enough to figure out what your poll is really asking so I'm not going to vote, I'll just tell you my answer. ((EDIT: OK Peake, no fair going back and rewording the poll after you read my post. I can look stupid enough WITHOUT your help, thank-you very much!!)

I will review FF with a dog if I think it needs done. I'm more inclined to do this with dogs coming back from home where "Fetch" might not mean "Fetch" as much, or as quickly, as when I say it.

Joe S.
 

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I'm probably as far from a FF application expert as you're going to find on this board, but I'm in a position to see a mess of FFed dogs display the sort of problems FF is often touted for preventing. Watched a Lab FFed by a well respected pro fillet a mallard breast last December and see less dramatic hardmouth, piddlin'-around-with-game and no-go problems with some frequency.

Suppose it could be that the shortcomings I witness result from inproper FF application, but I'm inclined to believe it's more often a follow-through, or lack thereof, issue.

Could well be wrong, but it's my belief that one of a good FF methodology's greatest benefits is that it forces consistency on the guy applying it and instills that habit in him. Don't think it's coincidence that most (though not all) of the FFed dogs I see screw up are handled by folks who relegated FFing to someone else. And I can say with absolute certainty that I've never seen a handler try to correct a problem dog by revisiting FF lessons, rather than yelling and/or hitting a button - and often making matters worse.
 

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Tough question.

I was going to say "No, because it is relative to the dog."

But then I got to thinkin' about that little word correctly. That makes it kinda absolute, doesn't it? If I had FFed "correctly" I will have taken into consideration the subjective differences between the individual dawgs.

But maybe there is no such thing as a perfectly FF trained dawg? Then where do we draw the line about what is "correct" and "incorrect?"

I guess I don't like this poll. :? :wink:
 

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I voted no on your poll. Only because they are dogs and all dogs need a tune up at some time on all skills that they have already learned.

Andy
 

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Idon't think that any sort of training is "forever". Otherwise we would all have perfect dogs after a year or so.

Regardless of my training, or my job, I will always have someone looking over my shoulder, making sure that I do some sort of my life correctly. If I am not really paying attention one day and am exceeding the speed limit, which I've been thoroughly TAUGHT to obey, the High Sheriff will have one of his assistants strap the E-collar on me and ZAP me.

It's a life long process, in my opinion.

Jerry
 

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FF

in my opinion dogs are never finished with ff training - just like
ob training its an on going function of training - at times the
drills need to be repeated
oc
 

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Once thoroughly force fetched, the training should remain, but to what extent? It's a good question you've asked, Peake. It just isn't a comprehensive one.

You aren't ever finished maintaining a working standard, but some dogs need little refresher over their careers. Some need much more, even if the initial training was quite good, because the dog may be resistant to training standards. The same is true of all skills.

Evan
"Work Smart"
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Well, lets see 14 to 5??? Hmm, I guess that flies in the face of a strong opinion I once was given on RTF of old :wink: when I was takin' to task on the need for a possible refresher on a particular dawg :twisted: Yep, I feel better now :D
Good Training All,
Peake
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MFLB LIFETIME WARRANTY
 

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I won't vote, but I will respond.

I'm not sure what you mean by "refresher". Force-fetch is a tool, and as such, you USE it when the need presents itself. I do not consider utilizing force-fetch to correct a dog who say, drops the bird on the line as a "refresher". I am simply using the force-fetch tool in the manner in which it was designed. Drop the bird, I will say "fetch". Fail to pick it up in the manner I desire, and the ear pinch will ensue, forthwith.

With a thoroughly force-fetched dog (and correctly, as in correct FOR THAT DOG), it should NOT be necessary to repeat the force-fetch routine from soup to nuts. That's why forcing is a process, involving several steps and a number of pile-work drills. You can take the properly forced dog and repeat one small segment of the process to more clearly define what is required.

For instance, Omar is a shopper, something which I cannot abide. I like quick pickup and return, no dawdling. Obviously, this was not the case with Omar's previous owner. So, did I "re-force" Omar to teach him the "new" rules? Absolutely not! I simply applied a small-pile drill to teach the dog to not shop. Yes, it involved the forcing process, but was very focused, and he now gets it. It also only took one session. THAT'S the point with force-fetch. Done "correctly", the dog understands the pressure and the "why" behind it, even when the rules change.

Lisa
 

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I would have once said "once FFed, always FFed. It is only a matter of maintaining what the dog has learned."

I have since changed my opinion. Many things beyound our control can undo months of hard training. If you remember last year I mentioned that Meg got a rotten bloated duck at a test, and I had a hard time getting her to deliver it to hand. As a result of that one incident I found it necessary to put her through a complete 'rehab' program (including FF) before she wanted anything whatsoever to do with a duck. She also had a real problem with holding anything, including bumpers, after that one incident.

That is only one of many types of incidences that can have an adverse affect on what a dog has been taught.
Ever create a "hot spot" on the ole training grounds only to have them plant the blind there a week later at a test :roll: It can sometimes take weeks to repair the dammage that such an incident can cause. FF is no different than any other portion of the dogs training in this reguard. One simple mistake can undo all the training in the world.
tom
 

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I'm going to take a philosophical issue here to clarify what I believe is a significant point regarding FF and other skills.

Lisa said:
I'm not sure what you mean by "refresher". Force-fetch is a tool, and as such, you USE it when the need presents itself. I do not consider utilizing force-fetch to correct a dog who say, drops the bird on the line as a "refresher". I am simply using the force-fetch tool in the manner in which it was designed. Drop the bird, I will say "fetch". Fail to pick it up in the manner I desire, and the ear pinch will ensue, forthwith.
First, force-fetch is used every time your dog retrieves: Fetch & Recall. It is, therefore, 'refreshed' with continued use. If any part of the process is obviously degraded you shine it up right then and there, whether it's the manner in which the fetch object is held, fetched, or delivered.

Force fetch is about more than hand-deliveries. It is about proper bird handling. It is about compulsion. It is about organizing the way a retriever works, and assuring that the work is accomplished surely and appropriately.

You wouldn't normally allow a dog to completely stop coming to you when called before initiating some maintenance for your "here" command. Neither would you wait for some mouth problem or chronic failure to fetch to fester before cleaning up those elements of force fetching before responding with good maintenance.

I think that's why we don't see anyone offering a "refresher course" in force fetch. It's refreshed as a normal course of maintenance training during all our daily work.

Evan
 

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Funny how our retriever world has changed since this 2003 RTF poll. The 2 Chesapeake's on my lap now have never had an ear pinched. Yet I still have not picked up dropped keys since 1998 😏

Yes, there are two paths you can go by
But in the long run
There's still time to change the road you're on
And it makes me wonder
 

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New owners pay you to stir some activity on the board, Ken?

Fwiw, I'm around a dozen gun dogs in and still waiting to see reason to FF one of my own. ('Course five have been Chesapeakes...)
 

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Hmmm. Old thread. First clue was Lisa Van Loo. I thought she would say, "It depends." I believe she is the one who invented that phrase.

I have had to redo a few dogs that someone else who shall remain nameless, mostly because they didn't really tell me who it was , force fetched. They must have been in a hurry because nothing they had done was thorough.

But on dogs that I have force fetched for myself and some for friends of mine, I have never had to go back and re-force. That isn't to say that I haven't pinched an ear, but that when I've had to resort to an ear pinch the dog immediately understood why and complied. My two personal dogs have never given me trouble. Scooter doesn't like geese and lets me know every time...Every. Stinkin. Time. But he picks them up and half assed brings them back.

so I say yes if it's done right it stays done.
 

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I thought Force fetch was about teaching a dog about pressure (Force) and how to deal with it (Compliance)
 

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Hmmm. Old thread. First clue was Lisa Van Loo. I thought she would say, "It depends." I believe she is the one who invented that phrase.

I have had to redo a few dogs that someone else who shall remain nameless, mostly because they didn't really tell me who it was , force fetched. They must have been in a hurry because nothing they had done was thorough.

But on dogs that I have force fetched for myself and some for friends of mine, I have never had to go back and re-force. That isn't to say that I haven't pinched an ear, but that when I've had to resort to an ear pinch the dog immediately understood why and complied. My two personal dogs have never given me trouble. Scooter doesn't like geese and lets me know every time...Every. Stinkin. Time. But he picks them up and half assed brings them back.

so I say yes if it's done right it stays done.

YES!!!! Pressure! then Compliance..
 
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