[Wade Thurman]

Jay started a Key hole thread and there is some great discussion going on. Here is another I hope will get people talking.

The set up is a wide open triple, long middle shot 1st, (centerfield), right bird 2nd(Right field foul pole), left bird 3rd(left field foul pole).

Dog picks up left, then right, while enroute to the long middle, 3/4 of the way out, the dog stops and picks up a training pigeon left from the week before.

Explain what you should do on your re run.

 

[BBnumber1]

From the standard:

Notwithstanding the last sentence of Standard Procedure 8, a handler is not free to select marked falls in a re-run in an order different from the order in which they were selected in the initial run, and if the handler deliberately attempts to do so the dog shall be eliminated from the stake.

 

[Wade Thurman]

So what would you Do David?

 

[BBnumber1]

I don't know. I don't have that much AA experience to base my opinion on. Probably the same as I did the first time. Show the dog the marks, call for the birds, and pick em up in the order we did the first time.

 

[DoubleHaul]

I would try to make very, very sure he sees the middle bird go down.

 

[Wade Thurman]

David brings up a good thought regarding the pick up or something of that affect.

I am interested in what the RTF rubes interpretation of the Standard is.

 

[DoubleHaul]

Would the dog even have to be re-run? IIRC, the Standard Procedure gives the judges the discretion to re-run or not and they can judge the quality of the work notwithstanding the unfairness.

If the dog did as described, would you judges even re-run the dog? What if it nailed the first two and went directly to the AOF of the last bird and then found the pigeon?

 

[BonMallari]

That scenario happened to Nola in Utah a couple of years ago, as is her usual custom she picked up the birds in reverse order but had trouble on the memory bird where she found the pigeon, just had to chalk it up to a bad FT break

 

[Wade Thurman]

The dog never got that far so lets not turn the worm, please.

 

[john fallon]

As a "Hick" from the sticks, here is my take on it.

If the judges decide a rerun is necessary and in order, on the rerun one must try to pick them up in the same order as they did the first time...left right middle. Must try being the operative words.

It picked up the left and right first and second leaving the middle to be picked up last by default

".........a handler is not free to select marked falls in a re-run in an order different from the order in which they were selected in the initial run, ........"


john

 

[Barry]

In the first place in my opinion there isn't going to be a rerun. I'd give the dog credit to the mark. It's not the dogs fault that the judges didn't walk the grounds to see if there was birds hazards etc in the field that they decided to use.
Most likly the dog is going to do the same thing except this time hunt in the area where he found the pigeon. Except the fact that the pigeon was found and move on. The dog should not be penilized.

 

[Angie B]

It happened to me in my first open 17 years ago.... The mark was scored as a plus/minus.. It didn't hurt her or help her. No rerun. She went for the bird and found a bird in route that was dropped off a wheeler during a rebird.

No fault, no foul...

Angie

 

[Wade Thurman]

What I'm trying to get here is how peoples interpretation of the standard would be. If a re run is given how do you go about it as a handler or a judge.

We discussed this today in our training group and got varied responses of interpretation of the book.

I am interested to see how others see it.

 

[Ted Shih]

From the standard:

Notwithstanding the last sentence of Standard Procedure 8, a handler is not free to select marked falls in a re-run in an order different from the order in which they were selected in the initial run, and if the handler deliberately attempts to do so the dog shall be eliminated from the stake.

The key point is this: The handler cannot deliberately select in a different order. But this does not mean birds must be retrieved in same order

If handler makes no effort to select in different order, but DOG selects in different order, no issue.

 

[Wade Thurman]

This is kind of where are agreements/disagreements were.

If I pointed the dog at the go bird and he left the mat on that line for the first 20 yards then veered directly up the middle to get that long bird should I stop him and handle to the go bird?

NO, you do not have to. You MADE the attempt to take that go bird. Let the dog go.

Another point that was then discussed, would you as a handler knowing full well you are correct per the standard as it reads, would you trust that the 2 people sitting behind are fully aware as well?

Some in the group felt you HAD to get them in the same order. Some felt the attempt was a cast toward the bird. Others felt that the attempt can be made right from the line by pointing/starting the dog from the mat toward the go bird.

The interpretation is the scary part in that do you trust the 2 with the book or not.

That's why I asked David what he would do and would ask the rest of you, what would you do?

 

[Bill Billups]

Do you rescore all the birds or just the long one where there was the issue?

 

[rboudet]

This is kind of where are agreements/disagreements were.

If I pointed the dog at the go bird and he left the mat on that line for the first 20 yards then veered directly up the middle to get that long bird should I stop him and handle to the go bird?

NO, you do not have to. You MADE the attempt to take that go bird. Let the dog go.

Another point that was then discussed, would you as a handler knowing full well you are correct per the standard as it reads, would you trust that the 2 people sitting behind are fully aware as well?

Some in the group felt you HAD to get them in the same order. Some felt the attempt was a cast toward the bird. Others felt that the attempt can be made right from the line by pointing/starting the dog from the mat toward the go bird.


The interpretation is the scary part in that do you trust the 2 with the book or not.

That's why I asked David what he would do and would ask the rest of you, what would you do?

No they don't always know the rule, but there is always one handy at a trial and sometimes it needs to be pointed out.

You must attempt to pick them up in the order you attempted to pick them up the first time. You are only scored on the one you did not pick up the first time. but you must deliver all birds to hand. (They don't always know that part either)

 

[Ted Shih]

You must attempt to pick them up in the order you attempted to pick them up the first time. You are only scored on the one you did not pick up the first time. but you must deliver all birds to hand. (They don't always know that part either)

No, you are incorrect.

The Rule says that you must not deliberately attempt to pick up in a different order

The Rule does not say that you must attempt to pick up in the same order

If you are passive and let the dog pick up the birds in a different order, NO violation.

 

[Ted Shih]

Here is the Rule Book, page 29

The re-run of a mark or blind which was not previously completed shall be scored by taking into consideration the combined performances of the dog prior to the point of unfairness in the initial run and after the point of unfairness in the re-run. If there shall be more than one re-run of that mark or blind, the Judges shall exercise their discretion in determining how to score it fairly.
The re-run of a mark or blind which was previously completed shall be scored on the first completion and faults committed on such re-run shall be ignored except that if the dog (1) does not complete that portion in accordance with the Judges’ instructions for the test or (2) commits any of the faults set forth herein as usually justifying elimination from a stake, he shall be penalized in the same manner as the Judges would penalize him regardless of the re-run.

Notwithstanding the last sentence of Standard Procedure 8, a handler is not free to select marked falls in a re-run in an order different from the order in which they were selected in the initial run, and if the handler deliberately attempts to do so the dog shall be eliminated from the stake.

Key points

1. Dog is already scored to the point of unfairness
2. Handler cannot deliberately select in order different than in initial run
3. Nothing requires handler to affirmatively select in same order

 

[BBnumber1]

No, you are incorrect.

The Rule says that you must not deliberately attempt to pick up in a different order

The Rule does not say that you must attempt to pick up in the same order

If you are passive and let the dog pick up the birds in a different order, NO violation.

I would say that the interpretation of 'deliberately' is where the rub is.

If, on the rerun, I point the dog at the middle bird, and call for birds, and then, once released, send the dog where he is pointed, is this a deliberate attempt? I say yes, but it could be argued that I sat the dog in a neutral position (middle of setup), and just sent him for whatever bird he wanted.