[john fallon]

Should AKC FT/HT Judges have to answer to the AKC or anyone for that matter.
Should there be mechanics for complaints/protests....or not??I,for one, say"yes they should!"

john -To know what people think . Pay regard to what they do, not what they say. G.S.

 

[Vicky Trainor]

Hi John,

I can't speak about AKC FT judges, but I can tell you that AKC HT judges DO answer to the AKC for their actions. Also, there is already a procedure in place to file a protest/complaint about an AKC judge.

Years ago, in my first AKC Master test judging assignment, my co-judge ( a well known highly pointed AKC FT & HT judge) and I were contacted by the AKC to answer to a protest filed by a contestant. The protest was investigated by the AKC and proved to be unfounded; however, there was a bit of paperwork involved and we did have to respond.

 

[john fallon]

Vicky,
I can't find anything on the subject in either rule book.Point me in the right direction.
John

 

[Vicky Trainor]

I believe this is the information you are looking for:

Guide for Event Committees - Dealing With Misconduct

Section IV: Conduct Prejudicial to the Sport
Proceedings under Chapter 7, Section 1, of the Rules Applying to Registration and Discipline may involve different types of conduct. One test in connection with any kind of scene or altercation occurring during the progress of an event is whether a family attending their first event would be likely to decide, after witnessing such an incident, that the sport is not for them. While the number of people witnessing the incident should be taken into consideration, conduct that is known to only one or two people at an event can also be prejudicial to the sport. Among the kinds of conduct that may occur are such things as: a demonstration of dissatisfaction with a judge?s decision, including refusal to accept a ribbon or throwing a ribbon on the ground*; altercations with officials or participants, abusive or foul language in public; and mistreatment of a dog. If there is any indication that an abused dog is physically injured, it is the duty of the committee to have it examined as soon as possible by a veterinarian, and a detailed report made of the physical injuries.

As in any sport, conduct that may, in the opinion of the committee, be prejudicial to the sport, can take other forms that do not fall within these limited descriptions.

Rules Applying to Registration and Discipline
Chapter 5: AKC Discipline
Section 1.
Any club or association or person or persons interested in purebred dogs may make a complaint against any other club or association or person or persons for conduct alleged to have been prejudicial to the best interests of purebred dogs, purebred dog events or the AKC, which complaint shall be made in writing setting forth the circumstances. It shall be signed and sworn by an officer of the club or association or by the person or persons making the same before a person qualified to administer oaths and shall then be sent to the AKC, (ATTENTION: Executive Secretary) with a deposit, the amount to be established annually by the Board of Directors. This sum shall become the property of the AKC if said complaint shall not to any extent be sustained, or shall be returned if said complaint is sustained in whole or in part, or if the AKC shall refuse to entertain jurisdiction thereof.

***************
Keith.....Am I totally off base here?

 

[tom]

Not only that but the judges answer to the hunt test committee, and can be replaced by the committee if deemed necessarry. When you as a handler see something that is not within the rules it is your responcibility to go to the hunt test committee with the problem, then it becomes your responcibility to get out of the way and let the committee do their job. (That is if you would like your ribbon to count)

At a test I was at this spring the judges scraped and then wanted to just change one of the marks and rerun. A handler then went to the committee and pointed out exactly where it states that this can not be done in the rule book. The commitee then went to the judges and made them move the test to a new location.

The system does work, but we need to use it inorder for it to work.

tom

 

[K G]

Vicky,

In my opinion, you are correct. Those quotes come from two supplement handbooks and are not included in the HT regs/guidelines or the FT Rules and Standing Recommendations, but hold the authority of the AKC just the same. They are available at no charge (single copies) from the AKC and are included in every HT/FT secretary's packet for each event.

The only thing that can be protested at an AKC event is the eligibility of a dog to compete. Period, end of story. Now, the right exists to lodge a complaint about any other aspect of the event: unsafe grounds, usafe tests, suspected bitches in heat, really bad tests, etc., etc., etc. Whether or not action is taken is up to the committee for the event.

After the fact, a person who wants to complain, protest, etc., can contact the AKC directly. I would strongly suggest that anyone wishing to do so should have already lodged their complaint to the presiding committee at the event where the situation occurred. HT and FT secretaries must fill out a report in detail that describes the matter at hand and how it was dealt with. Usually, when the AKC receives a complaint via letter, e-mail, or phone, they will wait until they have the event secretary's report in hand before they proceed with any investigation. Occasionally, they begin an investigation based on word of mouth...but the situation would have to be particularly egregious for that to happen. If the complaint lodged by the individual does not match the report of the club, the club could be held liable for not reporting the situation or dealing with the situation at the time of the occurrence. Nevertheless, it is incumbent upon participants in the game to be prepared to attempt to right a wrong at the time that it occurs rather than after the fact only.

If a person chooses to go the "after the fact" route, it muddies the water considerably but the AKC is obligated to investigate the allegation just the same. Just remember that clubs and judges tend to "circle the wagons" when accused by participants after the fact, so the person better have all their facts, details, and witnesses in line before pressing forward with the complaint. The AKC does not take these situations lightly, in my experience.

Rarely does a situation become as bad as the one Lisa Van Loo posted elsewhere. Usually, you have someone who is...how do you say...."better suited".... to judge than the person she dealt with. If the proper procedures are followed as listed in the "Dealing With Misconduct" handbook, and the situation merits a hearing per the guidelines in the Handbook, then by all means that is the direction that should be taken. In most cases, though, if you've got a crappy test or a judge with a crappy attitude and it's not a "Misconduct" situation, it's best just to vote with your pocketbook and never run under those judges again.

Keith Griffith

 

[Gerard Rozas]

The biggest modivation for me and that should be for every AKC FT judge is that you are in the public eye for that weekend. It is difficult in our area to judge a major and not have 20-30 8pt judges and several national judges running. Most of the people who are running are truly my friends, some are my mentors, but all will notice what I do as a judge and how I handle myself. It is called "Peer pressure". And I feel it for every mark and every blind and every callback - so I do my best. I actually feel it worst when I travel to judge and don't know everyone. I guess because I know how gallerys talk.

Keith Griffith once told me when I co-judged with him many moons ago:

"I will never do anything to embariss you."

 

[K G]

That's actually a part of my personal "3 rules of judging" that I share with my co-judge when I meet them to tour the grounds. I got them third hand/paraphrased from Steve O' Connell, who I consider to be one of the best judges in the country.

Rule 1: I'm here to have fun...as much fun as I can have sitting out on a bluebird day, or in the pouring rain, or in the blazing sun with no shade...I'm here 'cause I want to be here, so let's at least have fun!

Rule 2: I hold 50% of the book and you hold 50% of the book...there's no such thing as a Senior judge/Junior judge in a field event. That goes for test set-up and evaluation of the dogs. Our job is to be co-operative, not competitive.

Rule 3: If I'm suggesting that we set up something or do something that is going to embarrass you, tell me...and I'll do the same for you.

That's pretty much it. Works for me.

Keith Griffith

 

[Lisa Van Loo]

It's not just the judges. We are all accountable for our actions. I'm sure those who witnessed the dust-up between myself and the judge think I am a poor sport, and/or a whiner. Well, I have to live with that image some people will have of me!

Lisa - thinks sometimes tongues can get bitten in two

 

[Miriam Wade]

Lisa wrote:

It's not just the judges. We are all accountable for our actions. I'm sure those who witnessed the dust-up between myself and the judge think I am a poor sport, and/or a whiner. Well, I have to live with that image some people will have of me!

Lisa-you may be right-some folks will see it as whining, but they will be the ones who don't know the whole scope of the situation & also assume that one should never question a judge.

I have no doubt that I'm going to have to live with my questioning my no-bird not being called as sour grapes on my part. I care about that tremendously, but I truly feel I was right & that the benefit of the doubt should have gone to my dog if there was any question.

This is just a fun game, but (especially when you get to the last series & your dog has worked it's heart out) we pay entry fees, travel, stay in (in my case!) cheap motels & spend a lot of time training. To blame the test &/or judges when you & your dog haven't performed well & you just need someone to blame is one thing, but to have to say "What if?" because of a bad/careless call is maddening at best & heartbreaking at worst.

Chin up Lisa!!
M

 

[john fallon]

If I can draw anything from the poll results thus far, it is that as a practical matter the above regs,posted in an obscure difficult to acquire book ,are"Not worth the candle"(Bob LaDrew). What is needed/wanted is pro-active Judging guidelines in the "Standard".
john

 

[K G]

I can't imagine going through life with the glass half-empty...

If you want to put the effort into judging, which you obviously have in the past, then order those two handbooks (either online or by phone), or go back and severely chastise the event chairs for the trials you've judged in the past for not keeping you "in the loop" relative to which books have what in them.

As far as obscure goes, that's hardly the case. The AKC passes them out at every judging seminar they do. Of course, you could follow some of your own advice and be "proactive" and get the copies yourself, instead of asking the AKC to totally revise their rulebook formats just for you...

Good luck with that...let me know how it turns out.

:wink:

Keith Griffith

PS...I'd also be interested to know...

Nah...never mind...

 

[john fallon]

keith
:roll: You have more positions than the "Kuma Sutra".
No pi$$ing match today.
john

 

[K G]

That's "Kama" Sutra... :wink:

John Fallon wrote:

No pi$$ing match today.

Discretion is the better part of valor... :squarewink:

Keith Griffith

 

[Gerard Rozas]

Speaking of rules - I have been looking at akc.org to try to order the FT rule books online - I'll be damn if I could find out how to do it. I could find the actual rules online, but not how to order a copy mailed. My good buddy Keith (any AKC rep actually) used to give me copys, but I seem to give them to new trialers faster than I can get new ones for myself. Can anyone help?

 

[Lisa Van Loo]

You have to order through their store. Copies are still free if you get them one at a time. You will need to set up an account with them (Hey, it's easy and it's free!)

Lisa

 

[K G]

Lisa Van Loo wrote:

You have to order through their store. Copies are still free if you get them one at a time. You will need to set up an account with them (Hey, it's easy and it's free!)

Nope...sorry...that "easy" and "free" thing is simply unacceptable.

It's the AKC. It must be difficult and cost something...

Keith Griffith...thinking that Lisa must have been his sister in another life... :wink:

 

[Lisa Van Loo]

It's the AKC. It must be difficult and cost something...

Actually, you may be right. IIRC, you have to check this teentsy little checkbox next to some teentsy writing that says you do NOT want AKC to sell your e-mail addy to anyone, nor send you "updates" or information about "sales" or some such.

Pretty sure there's such a disclaimer. Be sure you check that box the way you want it checked.

Lisa - dislikes spam and those who would profit by it

 

[john fallon]

rockytopkg wrote,
Thats "Kama" Sutra

The "Kama" Sutra is a play about a young girl....she becomes a courtesan studying the "KUMA" Sutra,"lessons in love". :roll: :roll: :roll:

I know! I Know! but I couldn't help myself.
john- who thanks the man upstairs for spellcheck!!(thanks,WRL, for the editing I need all the help I can get)

 

[WRL]

Well then John how come it is "studing" rather than "studying"????? :twisted: