[Brad Slaybaugh]

I was at a test this weekend. During Breakfast, we were talking about ACL injuries. I mentioned that several post on this site were about young dogs, less than a year having acl problems. Some of the people there have been involved with dogs for decades and who's opinions I respect, questioned wheather the quest in breeding for smaller quicker dogs is leading to a strain of retrievers who's physical design - meaning smaller bone frame and muscle structure but with extreme drive and power might not be contributing to problems with ACL's.

I figured I'd throw it out there for others thoughts on the subject. Also do you think it's more prevalent in specific lines more so than others, or do certian activities have a higher rate of problems than others? Are larger dogs "less" prone to the injury or more prone?

 

[Aussie]

The replies in this thread, may help?

http://retrievertraining.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=44464

 

[afdahl]

Anatomical question

Can anyone explain to me whether the ACL and the CCL are the same or different? I am interested because of findings that early spay/castrate increases the incidence of "CCL rupture," mentioning that the CCL in dogs is analogous to the ACL in humans.

So...is it the same ligament, and we call it "ACL" because of the analogy to humans, or is it a different one?

Amy Dahl

 

[Guest]

Re: Anatomical question

Can anyone explain to me whether the ACL and the CCL are the same or different? I am interested because of findings that early spay/castrate increases the incidence of "CCL rupture," mentioning that the CCL in dogs is analogous to the ACL in humans.

So...is it the same ligament, and we call it "ACL" because of the analogy to humans, or is it a different one?

Amy Dahl

same, yes. we all need to switch over to CCL at the same time. LOL

 

[lablover]

Amy,

I think, (I'm not a vet or a doc) that the ACL term applies to humans and the CCL term is for dogs.

In reading about my own dogs ACL/CCL problems, there appear to be some that believe there is a genetic problem. Data however, is limited; I'm not sure if any data bases are set up and are tracking this info.

I'm hearing that many tears are caused by happy bumpers, thown after the dog does a good series in training. Vison this...

Your dog does a great triple over some rough ground. You see the dog stumble a time or two and continue. Dog returns and you notice no problems with dogs legs. In celebration, you throw a happy bumper 27 yards and the dog tears an ACL/CCL. Your day ends in tragedy.
I've heard of lots of handlers NOT throwing happy bumpers anymore because of this.
The other thing I am consistantly hearing the the strain that running thru lunging mud and/or water puts of the rear driving legs. This could be especially true if the dog is dealing with obstacles, ie, bushes, logs, limbs, etc in the water.
Food for thought I think.

 

[Last Frontier Labs]

Oh My Word!!!
C'mon folks, our dogs have always run through mud....tell me a lab that hasn't. I think that is an inherent part of a waterfowl retriever's job.
Fun bumpers have been thrown for what...50- 75years???
Wakeup and smell the coffee. It's just one more thing we have to look at in our breeding programs.

 

[FOM]

I have a dumb comment.

Does modern technology(i.e. the internet) have a part to play in making it seem like these injuries are more prevelent in the working dogs than it really is?

This is a small community and with email and forums like this it seems that "information" is becoming available faster about the various dogs across the country. You hear more these days.

Also it would seem natural that working dogs are more prone to injuries than non working dogs, so it is easy to assume that it is limited to the genepool producing the dogs that are being hunted/tested/trialed. But in reality it is just the way the odds roll.....don't know too many monday morning quarterbacks that get injured like a real quarterback....

I guess I don't think the sky is falling.....

FOM

 

[Brad Slaybaugh]

Oh My Word!!!
C'mon folks, our dogs have always run through mud....tell me a lab that hasn't. I think that is an inherent part of a waterfowl retriever's job.
Fun bumpers have been thrown for what...50- 75years???
Wakeup and smell the coffee. It's just one more thing we have to look at in our breeding programs.

Hi Sheri,

Your post kind of works into my question.

FUN BUMPERS have been thrown for years, have the dogs changed to a point where this is now causing a problem that years ago was not a problem?

 

[Brown_Dog]

Cranial Cruciate Ligament Rupture.

CCL ruptures in doga are not the same was what occurs in humans. Humans are athletic injuries that result as a strain on the ligament from quick stops and turns. However, what we do know in dogs is that it is a degenerative type of disease. Very few (less than 5%) of CCL ruptures are the athletic tye of injuries and when they do occur these are usually in young dogs. Now the question and research is centered around what is causeing the degeneration of the CCL ligament itself. There are numerous proposed etiologies. And in all honesty it is probably a multiofactorial disease. One thing that needs to be investigated with more detail is the genetic impact. However another investigated etiolgy is an autoimmune attack against the CCL itself. What is known is that a dog who ruptures one CCL is at a higher risk of rupturing the other in the future because the degeneration that is occuring is occuring in both knees.

Hope this helps but the research is still on going and it will be a while until we have all the answers.

 

[Brad Slaybaugh]

I have a dumb comment.

Does modern technology(i.e. the internet) have a part to play in making it seem like these injuries are more prevelent in the working dogs than it really is?

This is a small community and with email and forums like this it seems that "information" is becoming available faster about the various dogs across the country. You hear more these days.

Also it would seem natural that working dogs are more prone to injuries than non working dogs, so it is easy to assume that it is limited to the genepool producing the dogs that are being hunted/tested/trialed. But in reality it is just the way the odds roll.....don't know too many monday morning quarterbacks that get injured like a real quarterback....

I guess I don't think the sky is falling.....

FOM

GOOD POINT,
I've been in the competition part of this for four years now, all hunt test, very limited experience!

however in the last few months it seems that I have heard more about ACL/CCL's than the rest of the four years combined.

Having said that, I've owned bred and hunted labs, all chocolates(save the comment, I'm can't help that I'm partial to chocolate), for over 25 years, in that time I've went from breeding with the most convenient stud available with no knowledge of OFA, CERF, CNM, or any of the other items I now worry about and selling them thru word of mouth. To researching pedigrees, performance, factors, brothers, sisters, past pups, and anything else I can think of and selling them thru the internet and shipping them all over the country.

I think that's what we should do, evolve as things change, fix what we can avoid what we can't and keep moving on.

I do know that if I can figure out a way to avoid the pain and downtime for my dog or a puppy I sell as well as the expense and heartache for me or the person who buys a pup of mine. I would do it if it meant breeding one line versus another, or large dogs versus smaller dogs.

 

[Last Frontier Labs]

We are seeing this injury in YOUNG dogs. These are not dogs who have had years of training and things have worn out.

FYI, bench bred labs have issues with torn CCLs as well. For awhile, they tried attributing it to weight problems.

I think it is great that RTF is available for us to analyze these types of issues. I think it does allow us to see "trends".

 

[Last Frontier Labs]

I think that's what we should do, evolve as things change, fix what we can, avoid what we can't and keep moving on.

Great advice!!!!