[Titus]

I have a 11 month old lab that is very good at marking and normally great at returning to heal and dropping the bird on command. However when we run two tests back to back (Saturday and Sunday) an issue develops. The first two tests we run were separated by a day. The second set of tests were back to back. On Saturday the dog ran great and received near perfect score on his hunt test. On Sunday when he returned with the bird he cam to heal and would not release the bird. I stepped back called him to heal and again he would not release the bird.

With another set of tests coming the next weekend, I returned the dog to the force fetch table, could not get issue to repeat, then worked with a dead bird all week and could not get the issue to repeat. We got to the hunt test and Saturday and everything was great. Sunday rolls around and the failure to drop the bird repeats.

I would appreciate any thoughts or ideas on how to work on this issue as I have not been able to get it to repeat in training and I only see it at HT on the second day.

 

[KwickLabs]

Read the following RTF old link.

https://www.retrievertraining.net/threads/article-on-remote-drop.77437/

 

[KwickLabs]

The following link deals with "defusing the issue.

https://web.archive.org/web/2016041...z/retriever-journal-article-by-butch-goodwin/

 

[Steve Shaver]

So sticking is an aggression issue?
I have never dealt with it but have seen it happen but never really thought of it as an aggression issue. Dogs I have seen stick did not seem aggressive at all. Infact, quite the opposite but this could be another way to look at it. Hmmm interesting.

 

[drunkenpoacher]

I have never dealt with it either but I have seen it many times in training at probably even more at events, once at the NARC.
Just from my observation, it seems more common with Goldens than Labs. Many Goldens have a tendency to be overly proud and want to prance around with their bird on the return. My Golden did, he has never shown any tendency at all to stick but I could see it progressing to that because it shows an attitude of possession. I fixed the prancing with about 1000 here nicks.
I have seen people do the wrong thing in reaction to sticking, grab the bird and pull upward. A battle they will not win and I wonder if it is often a contributing cause of the issue.
If I ever have the issue I think teaching a remote drop would be the first step I would take trying to fix it, but that is just a guess.

 

[Titus]

Read the following RTF old link.

https://www.retrievertraining.net/threads/article-on-remote-drop.77437/

Thanks, will give this a try.

 

[KwickLabs]

Keep in mind that this is not a brief process.....finesse is often a test in itself. Responsiveness is a key
component of training and bumper in mouth OB precedes this phase. Be proactive. It is much easier to
do this as an integral segment of training.

note: Do not let the dog pick up a dropped on command bumper in training. It is yours! Also, "drop" may
become the release command on deliveries (when you have a grip on the retrieved object). Precise practice
is required.

"drop"

"good" dog

 

[Titus]

So sticking is an aggression issue?
I have never dealt with it but have seen it happen but never really thought of it as an aggression issue. Dogs I have seen stick did not seem aggressive at all. Infact, quite the opposite but this could be another way to look at it. Hmmm interesting.

Keep in mind that this is not a brief process.....finesse is often a test in itself.

"hold"
View attachment 91048

"drop"
View attachment 91049

"good" dog
View attachment 91050

Thank you for the help, this seems to employ the concept of the father you are away from your dog the less control you have, so once you have the dog next to you, your ability to get him to follow the command is improved. It also works to teach the dog that drop is a command, like we taught the dog fetch is a command

 

[Jerryd56]

The times I have seen this it is almost always a Dominance issue or the dog Took the Leadership roll...
And again almost always there are other Little things that are going on that we miss, like when we call them they come but only at their convenience, we ask them to sit and slowly they make their way to the ground and are not focused on us and the bad behavior keeps escalating until something like freezing or breaking in a HT/FT happens.... I happen to judge all levels of AKC HTs and when I see this there is always signs something bad is going to happen, I refer to it as the dog becomes "self employed" as soon as it hears Guns Up Dog to the Line... The dog leads the handler to the line and takes over the show, sometimes it works out however most of the time it does not....
Make sure your Basics are ROCK solid, no exceptions and the dog has to be locked in and Focused on you...
Then practice leading the dog to the line from the blind. You can never give up control, if the dog forges forward to fast, make a correction and back to the blind or even the truck. Never reward that with a retrieve....
Most Judges could write a book on this type of issue because we see it every week....
Good Luck and Keep working you will become a great team!!

 

[drunkenpoacher]

I saw several dogs in a Q last weekend trying to grab birds back after the handler had taken them, some even running around the handler to get them. Probably young dogs, I did not look in the catalog. I hope the handlers saw the problem and are working on it, I would be.

 

[Titus]

The times I have seen this it is almost always a Dominance issue or the dog Took the Leadership roll...
And again almost always there are other Little things that are going on that we miss, like when we call them they come but only at their convenience, we ask them to sit and slowly they make their way to the ground and are not focused on us and the bad behavior keeps escalating until something like freezing or breaking in a HT/FT happens.... I happen to judge all levels of AKC HTs and when I see this there is always signs something bad is going to happen, I refer to it as the dog becomes "self employed" as soon as it hears Guns Up Dog to the Line... The dog leads the handler to the line and takes over the show, sometimes it works out however most of the time it does not....
Make sure your Basics are ROCK solid, no exceptions and the dog has to be locked in and Focused on you...
Then practice leading the dog to the line from the blind. You can never give up control, if the dog forges forward to fast, make a correction and back to the blind or even the truck. Never reward that with a retrieve....
Most Judges could write a book on this type of issue because we see it every week....
Good Luck and Keep working you will become a great team!!

Thank you for sharing your insight. I witnessed the my dog get more and more excited as we worked our way through the blinds to the line. I assumed this was partially a steadiness issue, so we have been working on our obedience.

 

[Pete]

So sticking is an aggression issue?
I have never dealt with it but have seen it happen but never really thought of it as an aggression issue. Dogs I have seen stick did not seem aggressive at all. Infact, quite the opposite but this could be another way to look at it. Hmmm interesting.

No Steve it is not usually an aggression issue. Freezing in some cases can be related in some way because of the eye dialation but is seldom related. How ever some dogs will take you out and shread you if you try to take the bird. In those cases it is aggression. It's called resource guarding. I do believe that is what the article was specifically targeting although one could use the method to teach a remote drop for any type of dog. Sometimes old articles have antiquated solutions. Better and way more efficient methods have been developed. Knowledge exists that it is no longer necessary to use obedience for behavior modification. Takes to long, may not be permanent and requires a lot of maintenance.
Pete

 

[Steve Shaver]

No Steve it is not usually an aggression issue. Freezing in some cases can be related in some way because of the eye dialation but is seldom related. How ever some dogs will take you out and shread you if you try to take the bird. In those cases it is aggression. It's called resource guarding. I do believe that is what the article was specifically targeting although one could use the method to teach a remote drop for any type of dog. Sometimes old articles have antiquated solutions. Better and way more efficient methods have been developed. Knowledge exists that it is no longer necessary to use obedience for behavior modification. Takes to long, may not be permanent and requires a lot of maintenance.
Pete

It just got me to thinking that it very well could be considered a very mild form of aggression. It's mine, Im keeping it and you cant have it could certainly be an aggressive act even if it does not turn into aggression. I can tell you that if you walk onto my property and try to take something of mine I very well could turn aggressive.

 

[Jerryd56]

Thank you for sharing your insight. I witnessed the my dog get more and more excited as we worked our way through the blinds to the line. I assumed this was partially a steadiness issue, so we have been working on our obedience.

Because of the interest in Hunt Tests many pro's are now using the series of getting into the holding blinds as part of the basic puppy training. So at the very beginning after the dog has sit very very solid they will take the dog and breeze them, put the pup in the crate, go back a few minutes later and get the dog out, bring it to heel, walk them into the hide and then sit looking directly at the handler, wait 3 - 5 minutes, move to another hide wait 3 - 5 minutes and then to line where the pup needs to sit. If all goes well they get a retrieve as the reward.
I started doing this last summer and had great success, training the process has greatly improved my dogs awareness on game day. She is completely in tune to the day now and when I go to truck she jumps out and sits at heel, walks to the hide, then to line and does her work. The nonsense has been trained out and her performance has really improved. We all work on the field work however we miss the most basic element of keeping the dog in control from the truck to the line. If we allow the nonsense here and they believe they are in control it will affect their performance... Good Luck!!!

 

[Titus]

Because of the interest in Hunt Tests many pro's are now using the series of getting into the holding blinds as part of the basic puppy training. So at the very beginning after the dog has sit very very solid they will take the dog and breeze them, put the pup in the crate, go back a few minutes later and get the dog out, bring it to heel, walk them into the hide and then sit looking directly at the handler, wait 3 - 5 minutes, move to another hide wait 3 - 5 minutes and then to line where the pup needs to sit. If all goes well they get a retrieve as the reward.
I started doing this last summer and had great success, training the process has greatly improved my dogs awareness on game day. She is completely in tune to the day now and when I go to truck she jumps out and sits at heel, walks to the hide, then to line and does her work. The nonsense has been trained out and her performance has really improved. We all work on the field work however we miss the most basic element of keeping the dog in control from the truck to the line. If we allow the nonsense here and they believe they are in control it will affect their performance... Good Luck!!!

Thanks, You make a good point. This is something that definitely will help with game day anxiety

 

[drunkenpoacher]

Because of the interest in Hunt Tests many pro's are now using the series of getting into the holding blinds as part of the basic puppy training. So at the very beginning after the dog has sit very very solid they will take the dog and breeze them, put the pup in the crate, go back a few minutes later and get the dog out, bring it to heel, walk them into the hide and then sit looking directly at the handler, wait 3 - 5 minutes, move to another hide wait 3 - 5 minutes and then to line where the pup needs to sit. If all goes well they get a retrieve as the reward.
I started doing this last summer and had great success, training the process has greatly improved my dogs awareness on game day. She is completely in tune to the day now and when I go to truck she jumps out and sits at heel, walks to the hide, then to line and does her work. The nonsense has been trained out and her performance has really improved. We all work on the field work however we miss the most basic element of keeping the dog in control from the truck to the line. If we allow the nonsense here and they believe they are in control it will affect their performance... Good Luck!!!

Good advice. Holding blinds are an important part of training as are other little things like calling a number before the dog is sent.
Always read YOUR dog. "Holding blind drills" can reinforce obedience but too much of it can build anxiety in some dogs.

 

[testdog]

I have a question. Were you at any time concerned about this-- tension nervous? I think said going back force fetch, may be going further down that road. There are a couple band aids, but over time handler cue likely best solution. The receiving of the bird, can be complex. Depending on you training and style. Ideally, one always place hand below your dogs head. If your in a sticking situation, place arm over (outside) head. If you guys are notorious, might be considered intimidation to the experienced judge(also note good handler skills are very obvious). But game is survive for the 4th. You can step to one of the guns, ... mark, watch. As reaching down, soft sit, mark. You do not want to ever pull on the wing leg, while on line. I would note, when receive a bird or bumper, pendulum effect from dog releasing to the weight transferred handlers hand. I always tried utilize two sided handling, receiving to the side the bird was thrown to. ie thrown right to left next retrieve , dog healed on left , bird taken from out side or left ( with soft heal as you receive bird-- thus send to the bird not gun) . You make slight adjustments in your favor on the line to fight variables set on mark. This is difficult to convey in writing. But will get to 4th regular basis. I have judged, more than once in the fourth series, handler and duck walked off line AA (note same handler or same sire). majority Golden or Chessie. I have encounter this approximately 10 times (while judging)varying degree, chopped, tenderized etc. Most end of circuit or Am after running more than two weekend in a row. Good luck, not problem, until make one.

 

[paul young]

Over the last 30 years, the dogs that I have seen stick on a bird almost always did so on the last bird of the test. Some handlers tried to fool the dog into thinking there was going to be another mark thrown. SOMETIMES it worked, but In nearly every case, at the next opportunity, the dog FROZE.

 

[drunkenpoacher]

I’ve seen dogs that were “sticky“ on every bird but if they were only sticky, or worse, on one it has always been the last one.

 

[EdA]

I would like to help but there are things which advice cannot overcome. How well was force fetch done? Did the dog just learn the routine or did the fetch and drop commands have real meaning. If the dog does not pick up the bumper quickly on command and with complicating factors and does not drop quickly and willingly when commanded then your problem began there. If you did all that well, not just teach a routine but teach and enforce a command, then your next step is to teach and enforce remote drop. Most all dogs who freeze or give up the bird reluctantly do so because of an unbalanced relationship with the handler. You identified the problem but misidentified the underlying cause (it’s not adrenaline and it’s not due to day 2). Good luck, this is a problem that rarely improves unless you undertake reevaluating your training and correcting past mistakes.