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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I just finished watching the sporting portion of the dog show, and I have to say that it was disgusting. The visla, the flat coated retriever, and the chessie looked like a hunting dog should. The cockers looked like little froo-froo lap dogs, the pointers were good looking, the lab looked like Uga the bulldog(the University of Georgia mascot). The larger spaniels looked like they were on the brink of a heart attack after one lap around the ring. The golden was good looking, but a little short and heavy. WHO DO THESE PEOPLE THINK THEY ARE KIDDING??? My hat is off to the breeders of the visla, flat coat, and chessie. They are the only ones who seem to have a clue. Some of those folks need to check out a hunt test or something...it might open their eyes.

raving and ranting regards,
Hunter
 

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I'm not familiar with the Viszla breed standard, but the Flat-Coat and Chessie standards still promote one dog for both the field and the show ring. I agree that it's nice to see working type in the show ring... too bad it isn't that way for all breeds bred for a specific purpose.

It's also nice to hear the announcers make note of the titles at the "other end" of their names too... even if they do get it wrong sometimes. I was watching the Westminster Kennel Club dog show a couple years ago when David Frey read the Flat-Coats name which included a "WC" at the end of it (the national breed club title for a Working Certifiicate). He claimed that it meant "Water Certified"... I was laughing so hard because I couldn't figure out if he was making a joke, really didn't know what it meant or thought the dog was a Newfoundland :oops:
 

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Euk dog show

I watched the show and thought that the yellow was very handsome. I do both breed as well as feel trials and I appreciate both in a different way. I have some hard core hunting friends that will only seaduck hunt with a show lab because there coat is so thick and protective. I think field people need to pay attention to some of the things we've lost over the years and I think the same for the show people. Appreciate both for what they are and sit back and enjoy it all. Bye the way I just put a CH on my english bulldog and she doesn't look anything like a lab! She is very feminine!!!!!!!
 

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It's an OLD argument, but I agree with the form follows function folks. The show Labs & Goldens (Push & some others are clearly the exception) are incredibly overdone-overcoated, heavy boned & too much weight. They would last 5 minutes in the field or duck hunting-IF they have any interest in getting a bird in the first place.

The Newfy folks (my former breed) are similarly aligned with the Chessie & Flatcoat folks. They see the merit in preserving the dog's original purpose. My Newf went from the breed ring one day to earning her water title the next. Draft & water work are as respected with the Newfy folks as is a breed title because the dog is expected to be the total package. Having a Champion/Water Dog/Draft Dog/Obedience Titled(mine was) was the norm-not the exception because the judges were looking for the same dog in all arenas.

Look at photos of field/show champions(Labs/Goldens/Chessies/Flatcoats) dogs from the 40s & 50s. They look like the field dogs of today. It seems only the Chessie & Flatcoat folks had the integrity to not compromise.

M
 

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I have worked with a girl who shows golden's and has tried to do field work with, and now after banging her head against a wall for the past 5 year's trying to get a JH (does'nt have it!) has decided to breed her fluffy no field ability golden to "push" in the hope's of having a dog capable of field work. I guess my point is there is such a divide between show and field in certain breeds over the past 50 year's that 100 year's from you will be lucky to have dog's have any natural ability left.
 

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Miriam Wade said:
Look at photos of field/show champions(Labs/Goldens/Chessies/Flatcoats) dogs from the 40s & 50s. They look like the field dogs of today. It seems only the Chessie & Flatcoat folks had the integrity to not compromise.
Let’s be nice. The ink is hardly dry on your GRCA membership application. :shock:
 

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Feeling cranky....

The big advantage the Chesapeake folks have is that the breed is a lot less popular, so it's a lot less competitive in the show ring. In Labs and Goldens, you have to defeat a whole lot more dogs to get points and majors--so you have to focus extra hard on getting that winning conformation. The drift of fashionable type is, I think, beyond any individual to control. It tends toward more bone, more coat, more "tremendous reach and drive."

I am really happy that the Chesapeake breed is not badly split, but feel it's more a matter of numbers than anything we can take credit for. Also working ability seems more persistent in Chesapeakes not specifically bred for it (than in Labs and Goldens). I don't know why.

Does anybody know the name of the yellow Lab? I'm wondering if it's a dog I know...I was privileged to meet a yellow who has since become the top winning show Labrador, a bitch named Lacey. I trained another dog for her owner, who ran Lacey on a setup or two. If that's who the dog is, don't doubt for a moment that she is hard-going and can *mark*.

Goldens vary a lot, like them all, but I've trained and/or worked with owners of some show-bred Goldens with a ton of ability and brains. It's unpredictable, and I wouldn't direct anyone to seek out a show-bred dog for hunting, but they aren't all bad. They can be mighty good.

Amy Dahl
 

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afdahl said:
Does anybody know the name of the yellow Lab? I'm wondering if it's a dog I know...I was privileged to meet a yellow who has since become the top winning show Labrador, a bitch named Lacey. I trained another dog for her owner, who ran Lacey on a setup or two. If that's who the dog is, don't doubt for a moment that she is hard-going and can *mark*.

Amy Dahl
Here is a list of all the Labs who qualified for the show
https://www.akc.org/nationalchampionship/index.cfm?disp_id=dsp_element

Lacey, CH SUNSPOT LACE EM UP JH, was absent (owned by Bonnie Anthony in MD).
 

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Re: Euk dog show

Lorri said:
I watched the show and thought that the yellow was very handsome. I do both breed as well as feel trials and I appreciate both in a different way. I have some hard core hunting friends that will only seaduck hunt with a show lab because there coat is so thick and protective. I think field people need to pay attention to some of the things we've lost over the years and I think the same for the show people. Appreciate both for what they are and sit back and enjoy it all. Bye the way I just put a CH on my english bulldog and she doesn't look anything like a lab! She is very feminine!!!!!!!





:roll: :roll: I just don't get it. Maybe handsome but that is a matter of opinion and to me barely looked like a lab. Seems to me the show dogs are getting more and more extreme all the time
Appreciate them both for what they are?? I'm having a hard time figuring out what the show labs are. Surely no longer a sporting dog.
I wouldn't be caught dead prancin around a ring with a dog that spends more time getting it's hair done than my wife does. What is the point? The dog was made to work and do a job not prance around and look pretty.
I'm sorry and my post may get deleted but I just gotta say this. MAKES ME WANNA PUKE.
 

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Jim Pickering said:
Miriam Wade said:
Look at photos of field/show champions(Labs/Goldens/Chessies/Flatcoats) dogs from the 40s & 50s. They look like the field dogs of today. It seems only the Chessie & Flatcoat folks had the integrity to not compromise.
Let’s be nice. The ink is hardly dry on your GRCA membership application. :shock:
Are you serious Jim?!? With all due respect (& maybe you are being sarcastic/tongue in cheek?!?) I found nothing offensive in my post & would never compromise or change my opinion in order to fit in. You know as well as I do that there is a quantum leap between the breed today & years past when Dual Champions were w/in the norm. To say that the working ability hasn't been compromised is to have one's head in the sand.

The Newfy, Flatcoat & Chessie folks refuse to sacrifice the integrity & original purpose of the breed whereas a JH or WC on the end of a CH in Goldens denotes a "field dog" & we all know that the bar should be raised.

M
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Steve, I'm glad someone else said it too. It's sad and pathetic. Maybe in a few years when I drop some titles on my BLM, I'll enter him in a show just so some people will open their eyes. I wonder if show people know that their labs don't look like labs anymore?

Hunter
 

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First, I heartily agree that the show labs bear little resemblance to what I know as a lab. But.......my sister in law called me this morning to ask my advice regarding a lab pup. She had a "show" type lab that died last fall, and she is considering getting another. I think in her case it is far better that she stick with the same type as I do not believe they could handle a f/t bred dog like mine, (sometimes I wonder if I can! :oops: )So in some ways its ok that there are really two types of dog. I think too many times our type of labs end up in rescue because people are not prepared to raise and train them properly. So there is a place in the average family for those tubby wonders, they all appear to be quite calm and low key. So keep em around!
 

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Let's not overlook the Tollers, there were several JH titles in their breed.
 

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The cockers looked like little froo-froo lap dogs, the pointers were good looking, the lab looked like Uga the bulldog(the University of Georgia mascot). The larger spaniels looked like they were on the brink of a heart attack after one lap around the ring.
Fwiw, the BOB Brittany was sired by an AFC MH. And I'm pretty sure there are more DC Britts than any other breed.
 

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ksubigbuck said:
Steve, I'm glad someone else said it too. It's sad and pathetic. Maybe in a few years when I drop some titles on my BLM, I'll enter him in a show just so some people will open their eyes. I wonder if show people know that their labs don't look like labs anymore?

Hunter
There's the solution to breed splits. Wasn't show folks who moved away from hunting dogs so much as hunting dog folks not showing. Is my understanding that the Brittany specialties used to be held in the same place and Dual believers would pretty much drag field dog handlers and their charges into the ring to keep the breed's dual nature alive. And, as with Chessies, it's still good puppy/semen marketing to run field titled dogs through the ring for their Duals.
 

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We get this debate every year. I agree about the sad split in the Labrador breed, however, both sides need to take a good look at what they have in the backyard.

Labs are supposed to be good hunting companions - not overdone show dogs, nor fireball field trial dogs.

It is so sad to sit in the gallery at a hunt test and hear people asking what kind of dog that is on the line only to see in the catalog that it is a Lab. They gasp and just shake their heads. Some look like a cross between a Lab and Grayhound - others are so small that the wicket would be called on them in the show ring. Yes, they can run 400 yds and not break a sweat, but they don't look like a Lab. :? The overdone show dogs may make a 100 yds -once. :cry:

You talk about the heavy coats - well it saddens me when I see a Lab shivering in 35 degree weather. A lot of folks in the south won't do water work in the winter because it is to cold. My dogs LOVE to swim - no matter what the weather. They have the proper double coat. That comes from show breeding. **There shouldn't be any "FLUFF" going on with a show Lab's coat - They don't need anything more than a bath so they don't stink like the swamp they were just swimming in.

There are a lot of people in the show world who are recognizing what they have lost in the field and are really trying to bring the Lab back to what it is supposed to be. Can the field people say the same thing? There are quite a few CH/MH out there. I have a Lab bitch that has 14 show points and needs a major to finish her CH. She will be running Masters this spring. All of my Champoins have advanced obedience titles and at least a JH. I know you turn your noses up at a JH.
In the past I did not have the means, time, or ability to take my dogs further than a JH = most had the talent and drive - it was me that held them back. Does that mean they were not good working dogs?????

There was a judge that really liked my girl and wanted a puppy "if" I would breed her to an FC. I told him he would need to take the whole litter because the field people would not want a puppy because she is out of show lines, and the show people would not want a puppy because the father is out of field lines. So, how are we going to get the two extremes to come together?

Each side needs to give a little - it will take several generations to do it.

All of these intense feelings about what is correct should be used to compromise and bring the breed back together instead of driving it further apart.
 

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I know of several people working towards the goal of a Dual CH.
It will take awhile, but I firmly believe it will happen.
 
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