[2CHESSIES]

I have trained/handled several retrievers to Seasoned titles in HRC. I have decided to give AKC Senior a try. I know about most of the differences. What about the water blind? Are there angle entry's, channel blinds, etc. I have been told that sometimes you will run several feet back from the waters edge. ? Any thoughts?
THX!

 

[mwk56]

All of the above.

Meredith

 

[Gold Strike Labradors]

Basics of AKC Senior Hunt Test: walk up, honor, blinds outside the marks, no collar or lead from last holding blind, diversion shot. Water blinds may include swim past point, or get dog on and off point. I don't know what you consider "several feet" from water's edge when running a water blind. My thoughts are, if the dog can run long, the dog can run short. Train and practice for both.

 

[drunkenpoacher]

In addition to the above, there will be live fliers.

 

[KwickLabs]

"I have trained/handled several retrievers to Seasoned titles in HRC."

Having run several retrievers in Seasoned HRC and Senior AKC, you may find that
the line will not be as "busy" as HRC in that you will not have to shoot/handle a real gun.
This means you will be able to focus totally on your dog (which is a good thing). However,
the live flyer presents an excitement issue if you have not done many (for some dogs).

As for the blinds in Senior (having run many), the grounds provided for Senior tests
often present a problem in that avoiding a cheating shoreline may require some thought.

Judges often will skirt this issue by saying the dog should get into the water going out
and coming back. The difference between should and must varies from judge to judge
and the grounds provided.

The idea that the dog should not be out of sight on the way to the blind is the norm.
However, I have had Senior tests where that was not always easy. Look at the blind
in terms of where a dog might get off line and quickly out of sight. Proactively stop the
dog in sight before possibly loosing sight and cast to avoid the issue. No NOT let the
dog hunt up the blind when you get close to it.

Note: In general, the marks and blinds will be longer in Senior as opposed to Seasoned.
Also, it helps if you can watch some of the dogs run before you to find out where there
might be something to anticipate and thus be better prepared to deal with it.

Lastly, it is best if you are over prepared.

Note: From the original quote about running several dogs in Seasoned, Senor should
prove to be a fun new alternative.

 

[championretrievers]

Another difference is that you cannot speak to the dog from the time you signal for the birds until the judges release the dog generally by calling the dog number

 

[2CHESSIES]

Basics of AKC Senior Hunt Test: walk up, honor, blinds outside the marks, no collar or lead from last holding blind, diversion shot. Water blinds may include swim past point, or get dog on and off point. I don't know what you consider "several feet" from water's edge when running a water blind. My thoughts are, if the dog can run long, the dog can run short. Train and practice for both.

The Seasoned water blinds that I have experienced have all been run right from the shore line. What i meant by several feet is maybe 5' or 6'. Perhaps to encourage cheating?

 

[2CHESSIES]

Thanks to all for your help!

 

[drunkenpoacher]

What i meant by several feet is maybe 5' or 6'. Perhaps to encourage cheating?

Don't you train for this?

 

[2CHESSIES]

Don't you train for this?

The reason for my original post was to determine if i need to.

 

[Tobias]

yes - train for entries up to 20 yd. You won't see them, most likely, but it is possible and as Stan said you should be training for them anyway. LOL Train for tight water entries, blinds run before marks (and therefore potentially between the marks because some judges are a-holes)

Personally I don't enter a dog in senior level unless he is capable of doing finished or master level work... or very near to it.

 

[drunkenpoacher]

The reason for my original post was to determine if i need to.

Train your dogs with the goal of reaching their full potential rather than just to pass a test. It will be more rewarding for you and your pups, JMHO.

 

[Happy Gilmore]

The only time I'd ever train from the waters edge is possibly when trying to get a puppy to swim at 6-7 weeks. Most the time you wouldn't even hunt at the waters edge. Your either way back or way in.

 

[2CHESSIES]

"I have trained/handled several retrievers to Seasoned titles in HRC."

Having run several retrievers in Seasoned HRC and Senior AKC, you may find that
the line will not be as "busy" as HRC in that you will not have to shoot/handle a real gun.
This means you will be able to focus totally on your dog (which is a good thing). However,
the live flyer presents an excitement issue if you have not done many (for some dogs).

As for the blinds in Senior (having run many), the grounds provided for Senior tests
often present a problem in that avoiding a cheating shoreline may require some thought.

Judges often will skirt this issue by saying the dog should get into the water going out
and coming back. The difference between should and must varies from judge to judge
and the grounds provided.

The idea that the dog should not be out of sight on the way to the blind is the norm.
However, I have had Senior tests where that was not always easy. Look at the blind
in terms of where a dog might get off line and quickly out of sight. Proactively stop the
dog in sight before possibly loosing sight and cast to avoid the issue. No NOT let the
dog hunt up the blind when you get close to it.

Note: In general, the marks and blinds will be longer in Senior as opposed to Seasoned.
Also, it helps if you can watch some of the dogs run before you to find out where there
might be something to anticipate and thus be better prepared to deal with it.

Lastly, it is best if you are over prepared.

Note: From the original quote about running several dogs in Seasoned, Senor should
prove to be a fun new alternative.

Thanks for the tips. I agree completely with being over prepared, I now have a better idea of how to achieve that.

 

[Hunt'EmUp]

Judge them both will say most of the time they are the same skill set. There is way more juggling of guns etc. in Seasoned and the requirments for mark-blind separation, the walk-up etc. in seasoned are harder to fit in. AKC the marks might be tighter and longer not the 90 degree separation nor required yardage that HRC has spelled out. Blinds can be longer too. That said most of the time they are very similar. HRC requires a diversion BIRD you will see them in AKC but not often; it's usually a diversion shot. As for running on the waters edge I believe most judges at the senior or seasoned level attempt to make water entries rather direct; so dogs have to go out of there way to cheat. They usually are not trying to make it hard or cheaty on purpose for a dog at that level. That said I have put on an angle entry-cross channel in a seasoned test because that was all the water we had. Senior and Seasoned tend to get the short end of the stick in regards to grounds, so some times it can't be helped; but usually when something like this is put on they are judges leniently in grading. Technical Blinds at this level usually will be Channels or shore-lines; with a wider water margin than the upper stakes. I have seen 1 blind go over a dike, that's not usual on blinds; but you might be seen on marks; probably more in AKC than HRC. Most times the birds will be out of the water and not on waters edge so prepare your dog to be able to get out of the end, and work on FINISHING all your blinds. This is probably the #1 issue handlers have with Senior/Seasoned level blinds; they get the dog there then loose them at the end. AKC most birds on water marks will be on land, I will say most birds in HRC splash in the water; but I believe that is most of a judge preference item. In all my tests I keep water marks on land If I can as it (keeps birds dry and better to reuse). Walk-up in AKC is usually part of the double, HRC it's a separate test; but then I've seen AKC do it separately too (just not usually). Big issue with going to AKC YOU CANNOT TALK TO YOUR DOG, after you signal ready and until the Judge releases you. Also WAIT FOR THE JUDGE TO RELEASE YOU otherwise You will be failed instantly and that REALLY stinks. That said you are allowed a controlled break in AKC, so if a break is going to happen STOP it and let the judges figure it out.

 

[2CHESSIES]

Judge them both will say most of the time they are the same skill set. There is way more juggling of guns etc. in Seasoned and the requirments for mark-blind separation, the walk-up etc. in seasoned are harder to fit in. AKC the marks might be tighter and longer not the 90 degree separation nor required yardage that HRC has spelled out. Blinds can be longer too. That said most of the time they are very similar. HRC requires a diversion BIRD you will see them in AKC but not often; it's usually a diversion shot. As for running on the waters edge I believe most judges at the senior or seasoned level attempt to make water entries rather direct; so dogs have to go out of there way to cheat. They usually are not trying to make it hard or cheaty on purpose for a dog at that level. That said I have put on an angle entry-cross channel in a seasoned test because that was all the water we had. Senior and Seasoned tend to get the short end of the stick in regards to grounds, so some times it can't be helped; but usually when something like this is put on they are judges leniently in grading. Technical Blinds at this level usually will be Channels or shore-lines; with a wider water margin than the upper stakes. I have seen 1 blind go over a dike, that's not usual on blinds; but you might be seen on marks; probably more in AKC than HRC. Most times the birds will be out of the water and not on waters edge so prepare your dog to be able to get out of the end, and work on FINISHING all your blinds. This is probably the #1 issue handlers have with Senior/Seasoned level blinds; they get the dog there then loose them at the end. AKC most birds on water marks will be on land, I will say most birds in HRC splash in the water; but I believe that is most of a judge preference item. In all my tests I keep water marks on land If I can as it (keeps birds dry and better to reuse). Walk-up in AKC is usually part of the double, HRC it's a separate test; but then I've seen AKC do it separately too (just not usually). Big issue with going to AKC YOU CANNOT TALK TO YOUR DOG, after you signal ready and until the Judge releases you. Also WAIT FOR THE JUDGE TO RELEASE YOU otherwise You will be failed instantly and that REALLY stinks. That said you are allowed a controlled break in AKC, so if a break is going to happen STOP it and let the judges figure it out.

If the walk-up is part of the double, and you can't communicate w/ your dog after you signal the start, how do you control your dog while waiting for the second mark?

 

[Tobias]

If the walk-up is part of the double, and you can't communicate w/ your dog after you signal the start, how do you control your dog while waiting for the second mark?

Sit means sit.
When the walk up mark is thrown you stop walking and whistle or verbally command your dog to sit. He should stay sitting for the second mark, just as he would for any multiple marking scenario.

 

[drunkenpoacher]

If the walk-up is part of the double, and you can't communicate w/ your dog after you signal the start, how do you control your dog while waiting for the second mark?

Teach him to sit on the flush and shot.

 

[Hunt'EmUp]

If the walk-up is part of the double, and you can't communicate w/ your dog after you signal the start, how do you control your dog while waiting for the second mark?

On the walk-up you can tell your dog to heel quitely until the judges signal the release of the 1st bird; at that time you get 1 sit command or 1 sit whistle (while the bird is in the air); then you must be silent through out the rest of the Marks; until the judges releases the dog to retrieve.

 

[2CHESSIES]

Thx guys! 1st Senior test is May 15th. I will post results, good or bad.