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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
as some of you may have seen in my pup updates moose my 11 week old CLM is one quick learner but as i watch my videos and read my book im getting a little nervous and my wife telling me hes probably peaking early and will be a dud isnt helping.

in the yard he will consistantly do doubles thrown at 12 and 9 and return to hand. he wont leave till his name is called one time i said sit as i threw and he waited till i said ok now he thinks all retrieves should be that way i of course have started using his name now though. unless i throw in a "hup hup" then hes off to the races. on treat training with place in the living room all i have to do is say place and point to his bed and he goes. so i started setting up two beds on opposite sides of the room and having him sit facing me and using place and a right or left hand cast and he goes to that respective bed/platform. he is doing water entries and re-entries on land marks when i take him to the local lake. he goes ape crazy when i hide a bumper and tell him to hunt em up till he finds it and brings it to me. (book incorporates upland training simultaneously)

im wondering if i should hold off on this and refine it later or still implement it in his daily training? im starting formal obedience 2 weeks from today as per my training program just curious if i should back it off or embrace it? certainly a dog that will do doubles is great and a dog that will take a directional cast is awesome as well as water entries and re-entries. but is it to early?

on a side note one thing he wont do is jump into water that has no grade. took him to another corner of the lake today that had a bank but at the waters edge it is 3 feet deep. he wouldnt go after it for nothing. ran up to the edge and hit the brakes. i had to go swimming to get a dummy 10 feet out ( i had him back in the car so he couldnt see that i could get it myself lol) any tips or is that just something they learn especially after FF?
 

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as some of you may have seen in my pup updates moose my 11 week old CLM is one quick learner but as i watch my videos and read my book im getting a little nervous and my wife telling me hes probably peaking early and will be a dud isnt helping.

in the yard he will consistantly do doubles thrown at 12 and 9 and return to hand. he wont leave till his name is called one time i said sit as i threw and he waited till i said ok now he thinks all retrieves should be that way i of course have started using his name now though. unless i throw in a "hup hup" then hes off to the races. on treat training with place in the living room all i have to do is say place and point to his bed and he goes. so i started setting up two beds on opposite sides of the room and having him sit facing me and using place and a right or left hand cast and he goes to that respective bed/platform. he is doing water entries and re-entries on land marks when i take him to the local lake.

im wondering if i should hold off on this and refine it later or still implement it in his daily training? im starting formal obedience 2 weeks from today as per my training program just curious if i should back it off or embrace it? certainly a dog that will do doubles is great and a dog that will take a directional cast is awesome as well as water entries and re-entries. but is it to early?

on a side note one thing he wont do is jump into water that has no grade. took him to another corner of the lake today that had a bank but at the waters edge it is 3 feet deep. he wouldnt go after it for nothing. ran up to the edge and hit the brakes. i had to go swimming to get a dummy 10 feet out ( i had him back in the car so he couldnt see that i could get it myself lol) any tips or is that just something they learn especially after FF?
If you think that you are going to fast, then you a probally right.:)
 

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women have a very high level of perception of things beyond the mechanical. your wife may observe things in a way you are incapable of.

are you saying you ask the pup to jump off a bank three feet high into water three feet below? or the water was at the level of the bank but the water was three feet deep?

puppies are capable of learning almost anything if taught properly and positively. but their physical capabilities are often not up to their mental. don't ask too much physically or you may risk injury. and always remember to be careful with pressure, it comes in many forms.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
the pressure thing hasnt really started yet. its mostly in the form of treats (for OB) or praise vs no praise (retrieving) right now. no CC .no training collar (aka choke chain).

the water was level to the bank no cliff. it was just 3 feet deep. as in no grade. just land then 3 foot deep water.

as for the wife yea she was just using an example of how everything seems fine and perfect but he might hit a wall and forget every and anything and revert to being a very expensive pet
 

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the pressure thing hasnt really started yet. its mostly in the form of treats (for OB) or praise vs no praise (retrieving) right now. no CC .no training collar (aka choke chain).

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John is saying pressure can be mental. Looking at a long, angled water entry or a tight triple or quad are a couple examples of mental pressure. Mental pressure is cumulative. Many of us with advanced dogs will do a fair amount of therapy marks. Non-cheating, minimal factors, just go get em marks. And with a young puppy, everything is generally this type mark.

As far as going too fast, I'd stick with your program (actually, I'd stick with Hillman's program). I don't know what program introduces an 11 week old pup to what you've mentioned, but there have been very talented pups accomplish some great things at an early age.
I hate the idea though of introducing a pup to water by trying to retrieve a bumper in water 3 feet deep. I also find it strange that the program you're following would leave you with the question of whether your dog would jump in 3ft. Deep water for the bumper after FF. Finally, I don't believe doing all these things you mention at 11 weeks old rather than later after the dog matures a bit physically and mentally, will mean your dog will be better in the long run.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
my program doesnt say to do any of this i was just ambitious one day and threw 2 marks and he happened to get both. so now he does doubles as part of his training. i was just wondering whether or not to quit doing this and stay with singles only or keep mixing it up. 3-4 singles and 1 maybe 2 doubles is my standard training for the afternoon (preceded by informal treat training indoor OB)

he has been intro'd to water already (see video i posted a few weeks ago) and loves retrieves out to 30 yards when he can enter the water walking before swimming. yesterday the part of the lake we normally use was being used by fishermen so i was forced to move. this part of the lake had no walk in. i wasnt asking him to do so just seeing if he would and then asking yall if that was normal. after the fishermen moved we went over to the normal place we go where you can walk 5-10 feet in before it gets deeper and he once again was retrieving bumpers to 30 yards in it.

as far as FF and deep water, i personally was under the assumption by what i've been reading that FF was to let the dog know he has to get the bumper/bird when i ask him to. that is his job. of course it is my job to watch out for his safety and well being. if he happens to get through FF before he is ready mentally/physically for certain scenarios it is my job to hold him off on that retrieve. so in my example if there was a bumper in the water where there was no steady grade just 3 feet deep it is his duty to get the bumper after FF IF i ask him to and deliver to hand.

please correct me if i'm wrong
 

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If you think that you are going to fast, then you a probally right.:)
This is the best general guideline that can be given a dog trainer. Most of us sense we may be going too fast, and that's why we ask questions like this. What program are you following?

Evan
 

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I felt the same thing, almost like my new puppy was leaning faster than I was. As Even, asked what program are you following? I think it is important to follow a step by step process (program) so you don't speed over something with the "quick learning" puppy.

I taught "whistle sit" at 10 weeks old, it was cute and she got it but not knowing it does not come into play for month down the road. At 7 months old my puppy is just starting casting and we have had to "relearn" it.

Ed
 

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...

as far as FF and deep water, i personally was under the assumption by what i've been reading that FF was to let the dog know he has to get the bumper/bird when i ask him to. that is his job. of course it is my job to watch out for his safety and well being. if he happens to get through FF before he is ready mentally/physically for certain scenarios it is my job to hold him off on that retrieve. so in my example if there was a bumper in the water where there was no steady grade just 3 feet deep it is his duty to get the bumper after FF IF i ask him to and deliver to hand.

please correct me if i'm wrong
You generally don't want your dog getting in water because he is forced (FF). You want the dog to go out of desire to get the bird.
It's also generally not a good thing to try something to see if your dog can/will do it. When you throw that bumper in the deeper water and the pup goes to the edge and doesn't get in, it is bad. The bad part isn't that he didn't get in, but that you have no way out. The pup experiences failure and you have no way to help him succeed. I prefer to stick with a program and if my dog is exceptional we will move through the program faster than I do with my other dogs. I wouldn't hold an exceptional dog back, but I would progress through all of the steps in the program.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
captainjack: even though i've posted this video i wanted you to see that he isnt forced into water. he has desire. and yes everytime he would hit the brakes at the lake on deep water entry i'd throw a hup hup on land to make sure he came back with something. thats one thing my program preaches on. if he messes up or leaves a bird to throw a hup hup so he at least came back with something to show and get praised on. yes the deep water entry was a mistake at this age. but i think part of that is that yes he loves his bumpers but he doesnt feel compelled to get them. for example i threw one on land 2 days ago and it landed right next to a turd pile (did not realize it till i walked by it). wouldnt touch it. threw another one he went and got it. i would never ask him to pick that up. but i beleive FF would have him feel he has to like it was duty to please me even if he got a little poop in his mouth (again never would ask that if i can clearly see it. had just scooped up all the poop and this one must of escaped my sight.) the same with the deep water entry. Of course we may never know when and if he makes a deep water entry what his real motivation would be at that age. by the time FF is over it could be his larger size, lack of fear at an older age, deep love of water, or FF giving him a duty.



basically this line right here: "I prefer to stick with a program and if my dog is exceptional we will move through the program faster than I do with my other dogs. I wouldn't hold an exceptional dog back, but I would progress through all of the steps in the program." is what i was looking for.

following tom dokken's complete guide to retriever training. and taking notes of duck dog basics. i'm using the book dominantly because it gives various time lines and ages of what should be expected for your "typical" dog and progression stuff. as well as drills, building blocks of commands to perfecting it and explains why things will be important later. How you have to teach things, then build on them before you can enforce them. but if chris has any tips in it for getting something across i'll use it. i know its not a good idea to mix and match but there programs are so similar both use the crawl walk run philosophy, both have about the same timelines on everything, and both expect the same things from dogs (maybe because they are both sponsored by the same company, sportdog, and sportdog even puts out a dvd with both of them on it)

he's progressing and everyday i have to sit down and re read make sure i did everything right because i dont want to advance unless he has proven he understands something.
 

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Your better written books and filmed videos give you a timeline as well as a sequence of commands to be taught. These guidelines were learned by other innovative trainiers over years of observing dog behavior. follow them, they work!!!!!!!!!
good luck
GG
 

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captainjack: even though i've posted this video i wanted you to see that he isnt forced into water. he has desire. and yes everytime he would hit the brakes at the lake on deep water entry i'd throw a hup hup on land to make sure he came back with something. thats one thing my program preaches on. if he messes up or leaves a bird to throw a hup hup so he at least came back with something to show and get praised on.

...

basically this line right here: "I prefer to stick with a program and if my dog is exceptional we will move through the program faster than I do with my other dogs. I wouldn't hold an exceptional dog back, but I would progress through all of the steps in the program." is what i was looking for.

following tom dokken's complete guide to retriever training. and taking notes of duck dog basics. i'm using the book dominantly but if chris has any tips in it for getting something across i'll use it. i know its not a good idea to mix and match but there programs are so similar (maybe because they are both sponsored by the same company, sportdog, and sportdog even puts out a dvd with both of them on it)

he's progressing and everyday i have to sit down and re read make sure i did everything right because i dont want to advance unless he has proven he understands something.
I wasn't speaking of your dog, but rather your comments about your assumption aout FF. " i personally was under the assumption by what i've been reading that FF was to let the dog know he has to get the bumper/bird when i ask him to. that is his job."

I don't know anything about dokken's book, but I am familiar with Chris Akin's work having attended an Akin seminar. Chris stated in the seminar that he didn't base his program on any other work by Carr, Lardy, etc., but rather developed his own methods from trial and error. What this means is that his methods, while they have obviously worked well for him, are not necessarily complatible with many of the more popular Carr based programs.

With my first dog, I had a pro do the basics, FF, CC, , basic handling, etc (was with pro for 7 months). I used 10 Minute Retriever, Farmer Aycock problems and Solutions, Dobb's trained Retrieve, etc. One thing I learned from the experience was that it takes an absolute expert in the field to be abl;e to mesh different programs togther and make it work. Another thing I learned was that I was not such an expert. Mrilyn Fender has written in Retrievers ONLINE about the dangers of trying to mix different programs together. You will do yourself and the puppy a great service by finding a comprehensive program that you have confidence in and following it to the letter. Also, if youstick with Lardy, Graham, or Stawski, you will have numerous folks on RTF that can readily relate to these programs. I don't thin you will find that with the two that you mentioned.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
to tie this thread up...we are going to be slowing down. completely. apparently last night while playing in the yard while out pottying he hurt his toe. when he came in we thought he was limping but figured he must of slept on his foot and caused it to fall asleep and had the dead foot or something. then this morning i knew something was up when i wasnt up at the crack of dawn to take him out. he wouldnt get out of his kennel to go to the restroom for nothing i picked him up and he hobbled trying to pick one foot up. and laid down to pee

we had an appointment for the vet for wednesday for his shots but i told my wife (an RN) to take a look at it and decide she called the vet and they had an opening today so we got the 4n1 shots and worms, and x rays this afternoon. he has a sprained toe. they said they could drain it but it was too close to the joint to feel comfortable with if it was just going to go down anyway in 2-3 days. she gave us anti-inflamatory for 3 days and said to come back if it was still swollen after that to drain.

plus we are going on vacation to mexico on thursday and he's staying with the mother inlaw from Wed-Wed so nothing will get done there. i'm gonna miss the little guy and hate that i wont be here for him during this time. i do think he might be milkin it a little bit. he wouldnt even take a treat from the vet. and looks up at you with that face that says "i'm hurt pick me up and feel sorry for me" but he deserves the 10 day break.
 

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to tie this thread up...we are going to be slowing down. completely. apparently last night while playing in the yard while out pottying he hurt his toe. when he came in we thought he was limping but figured he must of slept on his foot and caused it to fall asleep and had the dead foot or something. then this morning i knew something was up when i wasnt up at the crack of dawn to take him out. he wouldnt get out of his kennel to go to the restroom for nothing i picked him up and he hobbled trying to pick one foot up. and laid down to pee

we had an appointment for the vet for wednesday for his shots but i told my wife (an RN) to take a look at it and decide she called the vet and they had an opening today so we got the 4n1 shots and worms, and x rays this afternoon. he has a sprained toe. they said they could drain it but it was too close to the joint to feel comfortable with if it was just going to go down anyway in 2-3 days. she gave us anti-inflamatory for 3 days and said to come back if it was still swollen after that to drain.

plus we are going on vacation to mexico on thursday and he's staying with the mother inlaw from Wed-Wed so nothing will get done there. i'm gonna miss the little guy and hate that i wont be here for him during this time. i do think he might be milkin it a little bit. he wouldnt even take a treat from the vet. and looks up at you with that face that says "i'm hurt pick me up and feel sorry for me" but he deserves the 10 day break.
Make sure MIL knows to watch him closely. At this age, they will have something in their mouth in a heartbeat. By the way, if you aren't doing any pressure and just having fun with the pup with no expectations... some of the stuff is just fine...

By the way... you have already seen the benefits of a good breeding!
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Make sure MIL knows to watch him closely. At this age, they will have something in their mouth in a heartbeat. By the way, if you aren't doing any pressure and just having fun with the pup with no expectations... some of the stuff is just fine...

By the way... you have already seen the benefits of a good breeding!
oh yeah shes been around him and knows is tricks and mischief.

i dont know if it was the 1 dose anti-inflamatory or what but he is trying his best to run and jump around the house with no limp. i'm mainly keeping him in his kennel for his own good but letting him out every once and awhile. after letting him do his business outside he sits by the door begging me and trying to jump at the basket i keep his bumpers in. sucker doesnt want to take a break. im gonna give him 10 days including my vacation then brush up for a couple days and see if hes ready for "boot camp" aka formal OB with chain as per my training program. he needs his rest.
 

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My suggestion is to go to a hunt test and watch a few dogs run at the junior level, then the senior level and then the master level. Notice the marks if they were all singles and the degree of difficulty at each level. You'll find that there is a big difference in the marks, yet the distance is relatively the same. Then go to a field trial. My point is there are a lot of pups out there that can run a 70-100 yard junior mark, not a 70-100 yard field trial mark.

Determine what goal you want to achieve with your dog. Get a time tested & proven program (Mike Lardy, Evan Grahm...) & stick with it thoroughly . Bench mark yourself/your dog by going and watching dogs perform at the level you aspire attain.
 

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You are caught up in the wonder puppy syndrome. Slow down and enjoy your dog. Soon it will be too late to do so. All of this puppy crap doesn't mean that much. Socialization and some basic training is all he needs. Again---slow down. I have one the same age that is doing awesome. Can do the long marks, ob is doing great, etc. It won't make her a superstar though. It's all about enjoying them at this point. Soon they will turn into teenagers trying your every move. Your pup is going to look huge when you get back.
 

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I would also suggest looking into smart works or lardys program. forget timelines, ages, dates, and all other expectations. Train your dog As he is ready. Keeping up with the jones' won't get you anything but left behind.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
if i were to drop some coin on say lardy would i be too terribly behind and would i then have to de-teach anything? he'd be 13 or more than likely 14 weeks before i come back and have time to order it


i have upped my expectations for this pup originally he was going to be a meat dog only and maybe run a few tests every so often within 250 miles probably allowing him to be a HR and junior at best but now im thinking if hes got the potential id like to get him to HRCH and senior at least and maybe turn him over to a pro for the masters and grand (again if he and i have potential and promise) mostly because of proximity and feasability for a grand in 3-4 years time and lack of akc tests here.

isnt this stuff fun/addicting? i think i owe it to him to take him as far as he can go
 

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if i were to drop some coin on say lardy would i be too terribly behind and would i then have to de-teach anything? he'd be 13 or more than likely 14 weeks before i come back and have time to order it


i have upped my expectations for this pup originally he was going to be a meat dog only and maybe run a few tests every so often within 250 miles probably allowing him to be a HR and junior at best but now im thinking if hes got the potential id like to get him to HRCH and senior at least and maybe turn him over to a pro for the masters and grand (again if he and i have potential and promise) mostly because of proximity and feasability for a grand in 3-4 years time and lack of akc tests here.

isnt this stuff fun/addicting? i think i owe it to him to take him as far as he can go
You absolutely would not be behind. Formal training doesn't really start in the TRT video until about 6 months old. Before that its just socialization and marks, He will start to steady a young dog earlier if the dog is a real ball of fire.

I'll tell you a secret about using a pro though. You will get far more out of the dog and the pro by having the pro do the basics and then you pick up from there rather than you doing the basics and turning him over to the pro. A good friend of mine sent his "meat dog" to another good friend and pro, Jerry Day. Jerry trained both the dog and owner through basics and transition. The owner avoided many of the mistakes that most new trainers make and got the dog off to a great start. Scott ran the dog his self and was heavily involved in training as well. I'm sure Scott and Jerry wouldn't mind me mentioning that Zoe spent several months with Stephen Durrence after Scott had to relocate and start a new job. Stephen got the Grand title with two straight passes and also received a qualifying score at the Master National.

You may have seen a recent thread congratulating Scott Goldby and his first lab, GRHRCH TPs Mighty Awsome Zoe MH QAA SRSA, on their Amateur win at the SRS event in Vienna, MD.

Results are not typical. You have to have a great dog, you have to find a great trainer, and you have to put in a heck of a lot of work. Point is the having solid basics and transition is extremely important in making sure the dog reaches his or her potential.

Hope you pup gets to feeling better soon. Good luck!
 
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