[Peake]

To the Amish trainers (are there any left? :wink: ) if you FTP how/when do You do it. Right after F-F? As an extension of Stick Fetch? Do you do your stick taps all behind the line or the whole way to the pile etc?
Peake
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Ffm video

 

[Miriam Wade]

I'm still Amish until Monday!! I've never held a transmitter.

I also didn't do any force training with Kate: No heeling sticks, check cords, ff or force of any kind. I always made things a game & she liked to retrieve well enough where she did what I asked her (except the last 10 yards in any AKC Master water blind )

M

 

[2 tollers]

Peake - I did force to pile as the final extension of FF.

I train with a group that is all Amish --- labs, goldens & Tollers --- about 10 dogs in total so there are still some of us out there.

 

[Peake]

M,
I'm just goof'n about the Amish thing as a wise voice from the old RTF said "There's more than one way to cape that kitty" or was it "There's many ways over that mountain" either way it's all good!
Good Training,
Peake
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Mercedes-Benz M950F

 

[Polock]

Peake, my FTP begins once I'm through FF. My perferred FF method still remains the table and once I move to the ground I start my FTP. On the table the dawg has learned hold, fetch, overs, and backs. Also has had paint rollers, dowels, bumpers, frozen birds and fresh kill birds.

The transition to FTP and basic casting coincide. I also begin marking again and start to introduce blinds with the marks and poison birds.

Don't really use stick fetch in my training routines...................just don't feel it's needed with a complete FF program................ :wink:

 

[Tim Carrion]

FTP is just FF with a few steps and then a few more then more....
Amish or not I like to think I teach before pressing buttons but I also still own a working collar with an antenna, plugs and warning buzzer. :lol:

Tim

 

[Diane Brunelle]

Amish training

I'm still Amish until Monday!!

and where were you tonight? The GSHRC banquet went well, I'm told there was standing room only in the men's room, where there were TWO TV'S posting the game.

Still Amish regards,

Diane

Oh, FTP...way after FF and when you're in really good shape to run out there to the pile

 

[Colonel Blimp]

To the Amish trainers (are there any left? Wink ) if you FTP how/when do You do it

This Amish trainer and his dogs have never failed on FTP, mostly because he doesn't do it; never saw the need, sense or requirement.

standing room only in the men's room, where there were TWO TV'S

Well that livens things up...a first for transvestites on RTF. Hope it don't put the dawgs off!

Regards
Eug

 

[Granddaddy]

....This Amish trainer and his dogs have never failed on FTP, mostly because he doesn't do it; never saw the need, sense or requirement...
Regards
Eug

I think many of us here in the US refer to an Amish trainer as one not using an e-collar but it doesn't mean that the Amish trainer doesn't force train. Since my exposure to retriever training began prior to development of a reliable e-collar with several consistently incremental steps, I opted to continue a then 'traditional' form of force training that did not use the e-collar until such time as the e-collar became widely accepted in the 90s. Prior to that time a trainer using force techniques would use a heeling stick, marbles & sling-shot, a BB gun, etc to make remote corrections or increase momentum. This was a common & traditional approach to FTP & other aspects of force training for those using force but not using the e-collar.

To infer that 'Amish' means no force is incorrect, at least IMO. Today I think that the force techniques of an Amish trainer can be much more brutal & unfair than proper use of the e-collar - so I would encourage proper e-collar use to anyone wanting to effectively train their dog.

 

[2 tollers]

[quote="GranddaddyTo infer that 'Amish' means no force is incorrect, at least IMO. Today I think that the force techniques of an Amish trainer can be much more brutal & unfair than proper use of the e-collar - so I would encourage proper e-collar use to anyone wanting to effectively train their dog.[/quote]

WOW - not sure where you are coming from on this or your knowledge base related to Amish - but that is a pretty broad and inaccurate generalization.

I train Amish and so does the group I work with --- there are no heeling sticks, no pellet guns, rat pistols, e-collars ---- no brutal work --- training is through attritition and running shoe corrections.

 

[Colonel Blimp]

Granddaddy

Not to resort to semantics, but by "Amish" I mean both non collar and non FF, so we differ on that.

FTP as a concept has been discussed in a UK based training forum and was thought to present a risk of inducing some behaviours that would militate against success in British FT's.

In the training I do, I just don't see a need or reason for force to pile....or indeed any other FF procedure.

Regards
Eug

 

[Richard Halstead]

I never heard the term Amish training we always called the non-collar trainers as conventional trainers.

 

[Peake]

Richard,
The webmaster himself came up with the light hearted term and as I understand simply means any method that doesn't include the e-collar. I also use to call it conventional or tennis shoe school but Amish has a fun ring to it.
Peake - Who is in the middle of FTP and seeing the good results as always.
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Blowjob Gagging

 

[Richard Halstead]

We used to hear when we were training channel blinds that if you weren't wet you didn't do your job.

 

[2tall]

On the table the dawg has learned hold, fetch, overs, and backs.l

Now you really have my attention. How do you teach overs and backs on a table??????? I am serious, details please, sounds like something I could use

 

[Granddaddy]

[quote="GranddaddyTo infer that 'Amish' means no force is incorrect, at least IMO. Today I think that the force techniques of an Amish trainer can be much more brutal & unfair than proper use of the e-collar - so I would encourage proper e-collar use to anyone wanting to effectively train their dog.

WOW - not sure where you are coming from on this or your knowledge base related to Amish - but that is a pretty broad and inaccurate generalization.

I train Amish and so does the group I work with --- there are no heeling sticks, no pellet guns, rat pistols, e-collars ---- no brutal work --- training is through attritition and running shoe corrections.[/quote]


Obviously, you didn't read my quote as it's reference to training using the heeling stick etc related to those who forced trained prior to (or in the absence of) the modern e-collar. There has always been a school of thought not using force but to label that as Amish misunderstands the term. It simply means not using modern technology (like the Amish logic) such as an e-collar. There are many non-ecollar trainers who use force. And just because the tools have changed somewhat from yesteryear doesn't mean that "Amish" is synonymus with the absence of force.

 

[Jason Ferris]

On the table the dawg has learned hold, fetch, overs, and backs.l

Now you really have my attention. How do you teach overs and backs on a table??????? I am serious, details please, sounds like something I could use

I'll reply to this, just so it doesn't get lost in the "What is Amish" debate. I'm sure Dan will reply soon too.

The idea of teaching basic casts on the table is in Dobb's books. It doesn't seem to be in their articles, but the following two are related and show the table set up...

Dobbs The Trained Retrieve - Part I
Dobbs The Trained Retrieve - Part II

They use a long table (typically a sheet of 4' x8' plywood cut in half long ways then supported to make a 2' x 16' table) with a cable running over the top to which the dog is attached. Like this

You do the basic FF on one end of the table with the dog clipped to one of the supporting poles, then once the dog is picking up off the table, move to sending the dog back along the table and across the table for backs and overs.

Regards, Jason.

 

[Gina]

Never understood the table & pully gizmos. I'm a librarian not a carpenter. Seriously - Doing FTP the old way gave me no gos and confused dogs. Doing FTP immediately after FF ala Smartfetch eliminated the problems with the previous dogs. Dog loves those mini piles. Not having to transition to the ground is also one less step.

 

[Steve Shaver]

Richard,
The webmaster himself came up with the light hearted term and as I understand simply means any method that doesn't include the e-collar. I also use to call it conventional or tennis shoe school but Amish has a fun ring to it.
Peake - Who is in the middle of FTP and seeing the good results as always.

Ahh the old days of RTF. Still love RTF but the old days were special.
Hey Peake, you are asking how others do amish FTP but state that you are in the middle of it. How about filling us in on your method? I for one would be interested.

 

[Peake]

Steve,
You bet I simply do FTP as an extension of Stick Fetch. After the dawg is digging out hard with stick pressure on close 10ft piles I gradually move back and lengthen out using stick pressure maybe two out of three sends all the way to the pile at first then half way and then just off the line until eventually I phase it out completely. Also I gradually ease the dawg into changing the command from "Fetch" to "Back".
Peake
PS Aah, yah the good ol' days of Team Nick and Burn vs Team Spencer. Remember when rm would make a rare appearance Wow would that light up the boards! ...Hmm, but who was that Theo guy anyway???
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Smoking Vs Vaporizing