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Hmmmmmmm, you better elaborate Marvin or your interest/endorsement might inadvertently be interpreted
as pointing a bitch owner away from a dog you loved way more than LM 馃槈
Up early or late?
 

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Thing is, Robert, they (LM progeny) were bred and born to run/win FTs. I'm still a relative newcomer (albeit per Marv a Depends diaper baby) compared to other eminence in this thread. But every Lean Mac offspring I've trained with (and that were trained by amateurs) over the last 15 years has been competitive in All Age stakes by two years old. I really had no choice, nor did I look a gift horse in the proverbial gob, in my getting "Secretariat Jr," she of the low COI. And I can tell you without qualm or irony, she was capable of running (and finishing) opens by six months old. Not because I pushed her, but because, my gosh, the talent level for these Lean Mac chill'uns doesn't have to be developed, it has to be tamed, almost domesticated, all over again. Yet I've not "gone into battle" with her because the taming, the "re-domesticating" continues. And what a Zen time to be had in training, which as you know, many of us Yanks are almost a cult in coming to it.

On the other hand, my yearling, the yell'un similar to y'orn (Goose?) on one side of the pedigree with the British Lean Mac (Bracken) from the frequent X'ing covering yall's bitches, got me a dual forecast (daily double to my fellow 'Mericans), with LM a couple generations back on bottom. And wow, training partners have marveled at how calmly she takes things, to and fro the line, like my 95% British gal recently passed, but with a ton of go and dime-dropping eyes for marking which comes from somewhere, and I'm betting it's LM (and Bracken-nick) affiliated.
That yella one of yours is more similar to 'Goose' than some would know.
The (Bracken) reference is cross-pond Parallelism to LM.
Some sycophant's can make sh*t look like sugar or the other way round. The 'Gene pool' dilution/concentration used to be labelled against line breeding , in argumentation of 'better for the breed'. FT globally (whatever your games) would be at a guess 0.01% of all labrador retrievers born , so I would say (by throwing ones hat in the ring) the FT successful titled dogs and bitches in that 0.01% of the breed have about zero impact on the genetics of the breed, but does require 'a wee bit more savvy' in the cartel . Must have been lucky with wee 'Goose' , now some 14 weeks old , his Sire attained ftch , and qualified for this years IGL Retriever Championships all after wee Goose was born .
Michael, like them debates in a pub over a few pints , 'Who is the best Heavy weight boxer' .
I, know one thing ..I know a good dog when I see it , and a greater dam .anyhow , If I wanted a dog like LM I would take a pup from the same sire and dam that bred it ,and give it the same nurture and training , even then ....it might just be a good dawg . lol . atb
 

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Grady was perfect to cross with LM offspring and EIC clear which was needed
I agree, it was a prefect storm. At the time there were very few EIC clear FT dogs, most all were carriers and many were EIC affected. Choices were very limited, and Grady was one. He also carried yellow which added him to that subset. But if we look at a condition like EIC we can ask Why it came along? because of overly used genetics; which while providing many good attributes also allowed the recessive condition to become prominent. I would hazard to say Grady's offspring are probably more or equal to LM. No one knows a real count of how many offspring LM had (only those that titled or were OFA) same is true of Grady. But if we were to guess that most offspring never title and don't do OFA's; I would think even our best estimated would be low. EIC was discovered because enough recessive genes lined up and dogs collapsed; what are we going to see when All these Grady lines cross back to each other in a few generations, and genes line up again? Hopefully it will be something as simple a EIC; but my feeling is we really lucked out on having a condition that only involved one gene. Frozen Semen is a double edge sword for sure; particular males can put so much impact on of generations of dogs. Where as females only get a defined number. Yet even with limited numbers particular females still make significant impact. Is that the better situation? Such is for the philosophers to argue I'm sure

My females were carriers I bred to Grady; don't regret it but I am watching my crosses back to him going fwd.
 

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I agree, it was a prefect storm. At the time there were very few EIC clear FT dogs, most all were carriers and many were EIC affected. Choices were very limited, and Grady was one. He also carried yellow which added him to that subset. But if we look at a condition like EIC we can ask Why it came along? because of overly used genetics; which while providing many good attributes also allowed the recessive condition to become prominent. I would hazard to say Grady's offspring are probably more or equal to LM. No one knows a real count of how many offspring LM had (only those that titled or were OFA) same is true of Grady. But if we were to guess that most offspring never title and don't do OFA's; I would think even our best estimated would be low. EIC was discovered because enough recessive genes lined up and dogs collapsed; what are we going to see when All these Grady lines cross back to each other in a few generations, and genes line up again? Hopefully it will be something as simple a EIC; but my feeling is we really lucked out on having a condition that only involved one gene. Frozen Semen is a double edge sword for sure; particular males can put so much impact on of generations of dogs. Where as females only get a defined number. Yet even with limited numbers particular females still make significant impact. Is that the better situation? Such is for the philosophers to argue I'm sure

My females were carriers I bred to Grady; don't regret it but I am watching my crosses back to him going fwd.
At the time there were very few EIC clear FT dogs, most all were carriers and many were EIC affected. Choices were very limited
What facts do you have that support ^^^^ this ^^^^^statement you made?
 

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At the time there were very few EIC clear FT dogs, most all were carriers and many were EIC affected. Choices were very limited
What facts do you have that support ^^^^ this ^^^^^statement you made?
The truth of the matter was we didn鈥檛 know much without the EIC test for many of those years. We only knew when parents produced affected pups. I believe EIC tests came around 2008 when LM was born in 1990, Grady 2004..
 

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At the time there were very few EIC clear FT dogs, most all were carriers and many were EIC affected. Choices were very limited
What facts do you have that support ^^^^ this ^^^^^statement you made?
Personal observations from living through it. EIC was very in FT dogs; how do I know? I was running dogs and looking for studs when the test initially developed; and before when dogs were going down due to "heat stroke" with some frequency. Test came out all of mine came back carriers and most of my training mates did as well. There were several dogs running events that were affected and owners had to learn their "particular quirks" to stop dogs from going down. The test was developed because there were enough dogs going down with good frequency that University of Minnesota looked into. I know people who sent initial samples, by the time that testing was fully embraced, which took several years there were relatively few clear FC AFC type dogs. I know because I was looking for them to breed to.

 

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Personal observations from living through it. EIC was very in FT dogs; how do I know? I was running dogs
and looking for studs when the test initially developed; and before when dogs were going down due to
"heat stroke" with some frequency.
Some time before that I had bought a pup from a sire that I had noticed other pups doing well
when I judged & ran against them. Pup arrived with all clearances, vet, pro & owner. Dog could not go
outside without having issues, Showed him to a vet that was also a researcher without saying anything.
The minute the pup stood on the tailgate the vet said "he had EIC & bad". Later was talked to by someone
who had influence on large funding & he agreed he would push for funding for research.

I was later told that it was common knowledge that this stud was a carrier. Apparently not, as I knew nothing
of it. I personally think that anyone who believes they are smart enough to deal with breeding known carriers
& that they can manage that looks at a fool every time they look into a mirror.
 

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How is this all due to Lean Mac?

Thanks to exhaustive research which has made reliable testing of individuals which are to be used in a breeding program, it is now known and has been proven to be impossible to produce EIC affected dogs when the breeding is an EIC CARRIER to an EIC CLEAR.

To Marvin's point, the pup had to be the product of either a CARRIER to CARRIER, or CARRIER to AFFECTED breeding.-Paul
 

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Some time before that I had bought a pup from a sire that I had noticed other pups doing well
when I judged & ran against them. Pup arrived with all clearances, vet, pro & owner. Dog could not go
outside without having issues, Showed him to a vet that was also a researcher without saying anything.
The minute the pup stood on the tailgate the vet said "he had EIC & bad". Later was talked to by someone
who had influence on large funding & he agreed he would push for funding for research.

I was later told that it was common knowledge that this stud was a carrier. Apparently not, as I knew nothing
of it. I personally think that anyone who believes they are smart enough to deal with breeding known carriers
& that they can manage that looks at a fool every time they look into a mirror.
Personal observations from living through it. EIC was very in FT dogs; how do I know? I was running dogs and looking for studs when the test initially developed; and before when dogs were going down due to "heat stroke" with some frequency. Test came out all of mine came back carriers and most of my training mates did as well. There were several dogs running events that were affected and owners had to learn their "particular quirks" to stop dogs from going down. The test was developed because there were enough dogs going down with good frequency that University of Minnesota looked into. I know people who sent initial samples, by the time that testing was fully embraced, which took several years there were relatively few clear FC AFC type dogs. I know because I was looking for them to breed to.

So, thats kind of what I thought, no facts nothing but an anecdotal.SWAG.

Based on your anecdotal "evidence" you claimed that...."At the time there were very few EIC clear FT dogs, most all were carriers and many were EIC affected. Choices were very limited.

In reality the science showed the incidence to be more along the lines of;...

group鈥檚 estimate is that 3 to 5 percent of all Labrador retrievers are affected and carry two copies of the mutant dynamin 1 gene. Another 30 percent are carriers with just one bad gene.


From your article:

Their next step was to determine how prevalent EIC was in the breed. To do that, Minor traveled to field trials in Minnesota, Wisconsin, and the Dakotas, and Taylor traveled to trials in Western and Central Canada throughout the summer of 2007, collecting DNA samples from the cheek of nearly every dog enrolled in the competitive events. "We went to seven field trials in the area and we swabbed almost every dog there," says Minor. "We also sent swabs to a national show dog competition, where DNA was collected from 200 conformation dogs." The group also tested dogs that exhibited signs of EIC that were seen at veterinary hospitals.

"That鈥檚 when we started getting a really strong idea of the frequency of this mutant gene in Labrador retrievers," says Mickelson. The group鈥檚 estimate is that 3 to 5 percent of all Labrador retrievers are affected and carry two copies of the mutant dynamin 1 gene. Another 30 percent are carriers with just one bad gene.
 

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Yep, no pelts......
The day the National Retriever Club & the National Amateur Retriever Club consider
what you posted as qualification for their Nationals you can consider them pelts!
 
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