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Marvin, crochety is one thing, but dang.

What if we let our dogs say which pelt is a pelt? Take Saturday's Arkansas opener for instance, if he could talk, would NFC Luke say, "Alvin, you brought me over here for some 10th series scentless hen pheasants and let a stanky ol' deadgrass chessie sit on a tree stand with mallards landing and swimming around while more mallards were knocking acorns down coming through the limbs? Some friend you are!" I dunno?

One man's pelts can be another man's waste of time.

Water Military camouflage Camouflage Tree Military uniform
 

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Marvin, crochety is one thing, but dang.

What if we let our dogs say which pelt is a pelt? Take Saturday's Arkansas opener for instance, if he could talk, would NFC Luke say, "Alvin, you brought me over here for some 10th series scentless hen pheasants and let a stanky ol' deadgrass chessie sit on a tree stand with mallards landing and swimming around while more mallards were knocking acorns down coming through the limbs? Some friend you are!" I dunno?

One man's pelts can be another man's waste of time.

View attachment 87965
This makes me jealous. I was working the National and missed my first opener in probably 30 years.
 

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Marvin, crochety is one thing, but dang.

What if we let our dogs say which pelt is a pelt? Take Saturday's Arkansas opener for instance, if he could talk, would NFC Luke say, "Alvin, you brought me over here for some 10th series scentless hen pheasants and let a stanky ol' deadgrass chessie sit on a tree stand with mallards landing and swimming around while more mallards were knocking acorns down coming through the limbs? Some friend you are!" I dunno?

One man's pelts can be another man's waste of time.

View attachment 87965
You must consider the intention of my reply. Paul Young is typical of
those hanging around the edges of the real Field Trial world hoping
someone will consider them a player. I've seen too many of them.

A day in the filed with one's dog is the ultimate in retrieverdom.
On those days all dogs are champions!
 

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so someone that pays a pro to train and run their dog in FT and potentially qualify for the national open is a 'player' but someone what has trained their own dogs to both hunt and successfully run retriever competitions AND judged quite possibly all 4 venues of retriever games in the US is not?
 

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The day the National Retriever Club & the National Amateur Retriever Club consider
what you posted as qualification for their Nationals you can consider them pelts!
You must consider the intention of my reply. Paul Young is typical of
those hanging around the edges of the real Field Trial world hoping
someone will consider them a player. I've seen too many of them.

A day in the filed with one's dog is the ultimate in retrieverdom.
On those days all dogs are champions!
Yes, I am on the edges , while you are a central figure in the Field Trial world.
Anyone who wishes to take a look at how central you are can do a search here on RTF . Just search Marvin's List....
 

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so someone that pays a pro to train and run their dog in FT and potentially qualify for the national open is a 'player'
I'm not opposed to it but will never understand it. Even more baffling is people paying a pro to train and run their dog in AKC junior or HRC started tests.
 

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Marvin, crochety is one thing, but dang.

What if we let our dogs say which pelt is a pelt? Take Saturday's Arkansas opener for instance, if he could talk, would NFC Luke say, "Alvin, you brought me over here for some 10th series scentless hen pheasants and let a stanky ol' deadgrass chessie sit on a tree stand with mallards landing and swimming around while more mallards were knocking acorns down coming through the limbs? Some friend you are!" I dunno?

One man's pelts can be another man's waste of time.

View attachment 87965
All those Greenheads and someone had to shoot a Susie? In my old crowd that was seriously frowned upon and brought scorn to the offender.
 

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Doc there's always a couple of guys in a hurry to tag em up and get back to a bloody mary.....
Some of the best times in the blind, late morning watching the big flights come in after everyone has limits of drakes. One of my favorite pictures was taken by a buddy in the flooded woods on such a day and I counted 57 Mallards on final approach
 

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I don’t have a dog in this fight as I am not a field trail hunt test guy. I did read all posts so that 10 minutes of my life I won’t get back. 😀 I am curious what Marvin’s dogs were that were AFC or FC and if he trained them? And what year did they win. I couldn’t find anything on the internet.
 

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So, thats kind of what I thought, no facts nothing but an anecdotal.SWAG.
My response would be the stats aren't there because no one really looked at it; UoM looked into Labrador breed not subset. EIC was a "don't ask don't tell" disease, and labs are a huge population (PET, SHOW and FIELD). Still EIC was in the FT set, proof? It was the FT peeps that saw dogs collapse enough that someone looked into it FT peeps sent in the first samples. The article and University of M says Lab population includes all the subsets, pet, field and Show. The majority of the "lab"population are pet; not field-show. Testing wise Show labs have just as many if not more affected-carrier labs as the FT but show labs rarely if ever show the disease. Show labs don't have the intensity to collapse, field labs do. Pet labs, well their breeding is not as regulated they are more outbred, EIC= recessive gene with an outbred population genetically EIC should be 25% at most. But the article says 30% where is the extra 5% coming from? Inbred populations that have allowed the gene to be expressed. Field labs where the disease was discovered? Those who sent in the most samples. Why Because it was there..

I guess I could ask Were YOU looking for an EIC Clear FC AFC stud at the Time?" There were very few; a lot of people choose Grady because he was an FC AFC good match-lines and CLEAR, for carrier females. Now prehaps initially only a few agreed to test as many people had heads in the sand and oh this doesn't exist...but breeder did know lines-stud that tended to throw it. Just as people know today there are lines carrying other issues, (heart issues, young ccl issue, etc) that are not testable, but wait that is only anecdotal, better not take notes on that. When the testing became a requirement to have an EIC carrier stud was to be a pariah; unfortunate as those genetics were practically cut from the gene pool. Does EIC=LM not really (he is not the initial mutation tracing it mostly looks to be a show line. But LM had the gene, and the numerous breeding of him and then crossing back to LM over and over allowed EIC recessive genes lined up. Recessive EIC genes=affected offspring; basic genetics.
 

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My response would be the stats aren't there because no one really looked at it; UoM looked into Labrador breed not subset. EIC was a "don't ask don't tell" disease, and labs are a huge population
This is the biggest pile of GDG I’ve seen in a long time. EIC was the name resulting from the definitive testing that was being studied in Canada and later at the U of MN for over 16 years. As breeders we wanted to end the speculation and finger pointing, and as soon as the test was open to the public they were bombarded with test samples. Previously we kept lists of sires who were producing collapsing pups. Maybe you know individuals who were doing your don’t ask routine but that isn’t what was going on. Later U of MN divided it into field, show, pet but it was shown to be consistently all type of Labradors in all countries also. The 5% was the affected individuals.

I see no reason to avoid LeanMac as long as you don’t come up with “new problems” and follow clear to carrier breeding

Retriever Results is a handy subscription to sort out fact from GDG but it lists under real names not handles
 
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This is the biggest pile of GDG I’ve seen in a long time. EIC was the name resulting from the definitive testing that was being studied in Canada and later at the U of MN for over 16 years. As breeders we wanted to end the speculation and finger pointing, and as soon as the test was open to the public they were bombarded with test samples. Previously we kept lists of sires who were producing collapsing pups. Maybe you know individuals who were doing your don’t ask routine but that isn’t what was going on. Later U of MN divided it into field, show, pet but it was shown to be consistently all type of Labradors in all countries also. The 5% was the affected individuals.
I see no reason to avoid LeanMac as long as you don’t come up with “new problems” and follow clear to carrier breeding
Hunt Em Up throws out garbage with some degree of regularity. We were desperately seeking the physiological mechanism while understanding that it was genetic and based on affected dogs probably autosomal recessive although the physiology of collapsing was elusive. People must be very bored to litigate an issue that science resolved years ago. Gene dilution is an ongoing process, the longer a dog has been dead and no longer a contributor to the gene pool the less influence he has genetically.
 

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Just wanted to point out:

The predicted inheritance probability of autosomal recessive genes isn't about the entire population and what percentage of a given population will inherit two recessives and thus be affected. Predicted probability is the probability that each individual dog will inherit two recessives.

One could breed a carrier to a carrier and say the litter produced 10 puppies. The predicted probability of 25 percent doesn't mean 2.5 of those 10 puppies will carry both genes. It means each puppy has a 25 percent chance of inheriting both EIC genes. That litter of 10 puppies could all be EIC affected--or none could be affected. A person could breed 10 carrier to carrier litters in a row and all puppies could inherit two EIC genes. That still doesn't affect the predicted probability that all Labrador puppies born after that will have a 25 percent chance of inheriting two EIC genes.

It's like a coin flip: it is always a 50 percent chance it will be heads. No matter how many times you flip that coin and it turns up heads, the chance it will be heads at the next flip is still 50 percent.

I'm posting this in response to the poster who asked why the inheritance percentage of an autosomal recessive gene in a population is 30 percent when it 'should be 25 percent' at most.
 

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Personal observations from living through it. EIC was very in FT dogs; how do I know? I was running dogs and looking for studs when the test initially developed; and before when dogs were going down due to "heat stroke" with some frequency. .....The EIC gene was isolated in 2006. According to Entry Express you first started running dogs in 2008. By the time you put a MH on that dog and did a breeding with that dog it was 2012 and the test had been out for years and virtually all FT studs had been tested.... Test came out all of mine came back carriers ... REALLY? Your dog Lakota's pedigree on Hunting Lab Pedigree gives this EIC clearance # EIC: FR42524605(Clear) and most of my training mates did as well. There were several dogs running events that were affected and owners had to learn their "particular quirks" to stop dogs from going down. The test was developed because there were enough dogs going down with good frequency that University of Minnesota looked into. I know people who sent initial samples, by the time that testing was fully embraced, which took several years there were relatively few clear FC AFC type dogs. I know because I was looking for them to breed to. ...You obviously didnt look very hard. So you decided to breed to Roux, who was a known carrier, to your dog Lakota, ,who you claimed was also a carrier? That would be the height of irresponsibility. Even more puzzling is why you bred to Frank Price;s Roux, a known carrier, that lived halfway accross the country from you. Why would someone claiming to only have EIC carriers and to be so concerned about EIC, go halfway accross the country to breed to EIC carrier FC AFC Roux when his Littermate Scott Spalding's FC AFC Drake was available, EIC clear, and located nearby to you?????

Personal observations from living through it. EIC was very in FT dogs; how do I know? I was running dogs and looking for studs when the test initially developed; and before when dogs were going down due to "heat stroke" with some frequency. .....The EIC gene was isolated in 2006. According to Entry Express you first started running dogs in 2008. By the time you put a MH on that dog and did a breeding with that dog it was 2012 and the test had been out for years and virtually all FT studs had been tested.... Test came out all of mine came back carriers ... REALLY? Your dog Lakota's pedigree on Hunting Lab Pedigree gives this EIC clearance # EIC: FR42524605(Clear) and most of my training mates did as well. There were several dogs running events that were affected and owners had to learn their "particular quirks" to stop dogs from going down. The test was developed because there were enough dogs going down with good frequency that University of Minnesota looked into. I know people who sent initial samples, by the time that testing was fully embraced, which took several years there were relatively few clear FC AFC type dogs. I know because I was looking for them to breed to. ...You obviously didnt look very hard. So you decided to breed to Roux, who was a known carrier, to your dog Lakota, ,who you claimed was also a carrier? That would be the height of irresponsibility. Even more puzzling is why you bred to Frank Price;s Roux, a known carrier, that lived halfway accross the country from you. Why would someone claiming to only have EIC carriers and to be so concerned about EIC, go halfway accross the country to breed to EIC carrier FC AFC Roux when his Littermate Scott Spalding's FC AFC Drake was available, EIC clear, and located nearby to you?????
 
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