[redline]

I have been hearing stories about unsuccessful inplants.
What are the odds of 7+ litters?
What do you think is the break even point with high profile (meaning
expensive lets say $1500 puppies for example) litters?
Jan

 

[Last Frontier Labs]

I don't know how many pups she'll have, but I have a virgin bitch who is preggers by a frozen surgical AI and she is getting BIG. She is due April 15th, so I'll get back to you when she delivers.

 

[Joe S.]

Jan -

We tried one about 6 years ago.

Did all the "right" things, got all the "right" tests, did it the "right" way...and it didn't take.

Was the first time in 19 tries the stud hadn't produced a litter. The bitch was an experienced Mom and the Vet was the one recommended in the area.

It happens but we were out a ton till it was all said and done.

Haven't done once since and don't plan on doing one again...unless Ed let's me have some of the frozen Honcho he's got stored away in the back of freezer behind the rib roast!!! :wink:

Non-Frozen Regards,

Joe S.

 

[Matt Miller]

Just had a Transcervical AI done a week ago. Will have to wait till Mid May to tell you the results. The Vet that did it has had what she calls very good success with numbers that rival Natural Breedings. I think there may be huge differences in Fresh Chilled and Frozen and or Surgical or Transcervical inseminations.

 

[Gerard Rozas]

The dam of my current dog has had two done.

First one to Shadow produced 10 pups.

Last one (not to Shadow) produced 1 preme female that died.

I know that you have to get the timing right, the sample has to have good mobility. Thats all I know. Those timing should not be a problem with the tests they have today.

:wink: Sure am glad I own a MALE! :wink:

 

[Kevin Mays]

Just went thru all this. You must have a good mobility number and progesterone has to be right for ai litters. i am finding thru research that many studs are proving to have low mobility #'s on their collections.

I will not personally breed my dog unless i can be guaranteed a natural tie.

#1 it takes too many months out of trianing and competition to miss because of the ai
#2 it cost way too much money for the results i have seen lately form ai's

There where several studs i considered when selecting a stud for Mesa and a huge contributing factor was access to the stud for a natural.

 

[Lisa Van Loo]

Part of the problem is, the stud dogs are generally older before their ability to produce WELL is discovered. Unless one has either 1) sentimental personal rasons for wanting to keep frozen semen from Old Blackie, or 2) Old Blackie has shown himself to be the re-embodiment of Honcho, there's generally little sense in going through the time & expense of freezing semen.

By the time Old Blackie shows he is producing some good "stuff", his motility is already naturally lower. Add the motility-killers like extenders, freezing, and so forth, and success rates go way down.

Few indeed are those who can see into their crystal ball (and have the $ to follow through), and collect a dog when he is young, 1 1/2-2 years of age, for freezing. Those would be the best collections to store for future use.

Lisa

 

[EdA]

I have been hearing stories about unsuccessful inplants.
What are the odds of 7+ litters?
What do you think is the break even point with high profile (meaning
expensive lets say $1500 puppies for example) litters?
Jan

Jan,

there are many variables that affect the economics, I personally do not think it is economically viable to breed a non FC or AFC bitch to a high profile stud via frozen semen

and frozen semen is not for the faint of heart

my personal experience, both with my own bitches and client's bitches is good with frozen semen surgical AIs

as several have pointed out the two big variables are the correct identification of ovulation and the viability of the semen post thaw

Lisa is very correct about age of the sire at the time of collection being a important factor. It is well known that sperm from an older male does not survive the freeze thaw process as well as does sperm from a young dog.

Neverthless Kweezy's last litter by Code Blue was 8 puppies and he was 12 when he was collected

I have had good success breeding to Lean Mac, Cosmo, Code Blue, and Abe, and all were older when collected, but it is a big gamble for the bitch owner.

We bred an untitled bitch to Cosmo (frozen semen) several years ago, she had 4 puppies and we lost money

Ed

 

[Lisa Van Loo]

my personal experience, both with my own bitches and client's bitches is good with frozen semen surgical AIs

Labs have pretty decent odds, IF (as Ed notes) the timing is done correctly.

Those following this discussion with Chessies, we have lower odds of success. I wouldn't do it with a Chessie unless it was a proven bitch, and just one WHALE of a breeding (and I'm not talking about "just good on paper").

Lisa

 

[Matt Miller]

my personal experience, both with my own bitches and client's bitches is good with frozen semen surgical AIs

Labs have pretty decent odds, IF (as Ed notes) the timing is done correctly.

Those following this discussion with Chessies, we have lower odds of success. I wouldn't do it with a Chessie unless it was a proven bitch, and just one WHALE of a breeding (and I'm not talking about "just good on paper").

Lisa

Is this because of the cost Lisa? I mean if I figure what it cost me for say 4 progesterone tests and two Transcervical AI's and collection it is quite comparable to the cost of a Natural with travel for the dog etc.... I think each situation is different. What are the odds of success with chessies. Don't we run the risk of no puppies regardless of the breeding type that takes place?

 

[Lisa Van Loo]

Chessies have odd reproductive issues. Bitches can sometimes be difficult to "settle" under the best of circumstances. The odds of a failure go up progressively: natural, side-by-side AI, fresh chilled, frozen.

If you were going to do frozen, then re-read Ed's post. What he says about breeding untitled bitches to high-profile studs goes double in this breed, particularly since the market for high-end FT pups is practically nil.

In my book, just not worth it, unless I was doing the breeding ENTIRELY for me and didn't care about the $ aspect. Frozen litters have been small, for the most part. Even fresh chilled has a high failure rate in this breed, and litters can be small.

Lisa

 

[Matt Miller]

I agree Lisa that the litters "Can" be small but they can be normal as well. I personally wouldnt be doing it if it was about the $. I just think that if you prepare and learn and time the breeding then you increase your odds. In some cases you may have to take a risk to get a breeding done. I have had discussions with many chessie people that have some belief that uneasy bitches have trouble taking even with a natural breeding. I think if my bitch was that "Uneasy" then she probobly shouldn't be bred in the first place. I also think that the entire "socialize early and often" tends to pay off later when an AI is done. The bitch is quite accustomed to people and Vets etc and therefore somewhat more at ease.

just my thoughts

Just FYI we did a Fresh Chilled Transcervical AI. Motility was greater than 80%

matt

 

[Matt Miller]

I agree Lisa that the litters "Can" be small but they can be normal as well. I personally wouldnt be doing it if it was about the $. I just think that if you prepare and learn and time the breeding then you increase your odds. In some cases you may have to take a risk to get a breeding done. I have had discussions with many chessie people that have some belief that uneasy bitches have trouble taking even with a natural breeding. I think if my bitch was that "Uneasy" then she probobly shouldn't be bred in the first place. I also think that the entire "socialize early and often" tends to pay off later when an AI is done. The bitch is quite accustomed to people and Vets etc and therefore somewhat more at ease.

just my thoughts

Just FYI we did a Fresh chilled Transcervical AI, Motility was Greater that 80%

matt

 

[Lisa Van Loo]

Matt;

I agree totally with everything you have said. As long as people know the risks, then they are free to make their own decision. I may be wrong, but that may be what the initial post was all about.

As far as Chessies, yes nervous bitches will have trouble settling. But we have also managed to bottleneck ourselves on Ironwoods Stone E Cubs, who passed on "hit-or-miss" reproductive issues. It was known that a number of his sons and daughters had spotty (or nonexistent) reproductive capabilities. This has come down through the generations and is now fairly widespread in the breed. That's not to say everything from him was a disaster. The top show stud was a son of his, and they are still getting litters from his frozen semen. It's just a caution to know that repro problems dog this breed, which is why I would do frozen AI only with a proven bitch.

Lisa

 

[Julie R.]

My Chessy had 4 pups by Canvas via frozen transcervical. The male was collected but since she wasn't ready they had to freeze it. Once thawed, my vet felt that it was good quality for frozen; 50 percent motility rate. This was to be a fresh chilled breeding (well originally I was going to drive up for live cover!) but her progesterone levels didn't indicate readiness to breed until day 20--we won't even talk about the cost of the 9 or 10 tests we had done! But I would have had that expense regardless of whether it was live, fresh or frozen. Naturally the ONE time we didn't get the test results til the following morning was the day she should have been bred so due to shipping she was bred a day late, actually on day 22. Canvas has a pretty good AI rate, mostly litters of 9 I think. My bitch was a maiden also. I think the fact that we had pups at all was because there were very good AI vets on both ends.

Good luck Matt--and don't be alarmed at the ultrasound, they're notoriously off. Puffin's showed only 2 pups. I know you'll be on pins and needles til you find out!

 

[Lisa Van Loo]

LOL!

I don't use ultrasound for head counts. Just as long as they show me puppies, I am happy. We saw 5 on Yankee's but she had 12!!!

Lisa

 

[lrlabs]

We have been doing surgical implants since early 1998. I guess we have done at or at least close to 10-12 of them. We have missed once and that was with an 11 year old stud dog who only sired one pup after that time. The key to doing this is timing. Our repo vet tries to hit a 24 hour window three days past ovulation. I really can't give a comparison of the results of a chilled AI versus an implant because we have opted to go the surgical route. We probably have averaged 9 pups per litter with a high of 13 and a low of 7. We currently have a litter of 9 from a dog living in Oregon via implant.
I feel very confident in getting pups by this method and considering you are injecting semen directly on top of the ripe eggs, "I feel" you are probably gaining one pup (nothing to back up these thoughts though). I really think the key is your reproductive vet and proper timing.

 

[frontier]

My Success Rate has been Horrible with frozen semen surgical

FC-AFC River Oaks Way-Da-Go Rocky 6 pups
FC-AFC Webshire's Hones Abe 0 pups
FC-AFC Watermark's the Boss 2 pups
FC-CFC Piper's Top Gun 0 pups

If I ever consider doing surgical AI again, I am making a trip to see Dr. Ed in Texas or going elsewhere.. others seem to get pups with these same repro vets...I am getting all the required testing done at the appropriate times...just not sucessful for my breeding program so far

 

[Jerry]

"Pete" is 10 and Brittmore Animal Hospital assured me that his motility was fine. Gonna collect him a few more times for no other reason than the storage cost is the same for 1 straw or 100 straws.

Jerry

 

[Matt Miller]

Thanks Julie, Yes we are doing an ultrasound for confirmation purposes. I have heard that they are not accurate for numbers.