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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My dog has done three FF sessions. He is at the point where he will grab the dummy off the table with me holding my hand on it and tilting it up to help him. So, he knows how to turn the pressure off. When you are at this point how many automatic ear pinches do you give? I know any refusal warrants a pinch. But, say he does it correctly 5 times in a row, do you give him a pinch on the 6th for good measure? Did I ask that clearly enough?
 

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DownEast said:
.... He is at the point where he will grab the dummy off the table with me holding my hand on it and tilting it up to help him. .....
Well, sounds like its time to go to the next phase. Put him on the ground. Give him something else to pick up besides a bumper. Move onto walking fetch.

If you're following a book (eg, SmartFetch), turn the page....



,
 

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2-Dogs said:
DownEast said:
.... He is at the point where he will grab the dummy off the table with me holding my hand on it and tilting it up to help him. .....
Well, sounds like its time to go to the next phase. Put him on the ground. Give him something else to pick up besides a bumper. Move onto walking fetch.

If you're following a book (eg, SmartFetch), turn the page....



,
How many dogs have you taken through FF?

:shock: Where is Kip when you need him? :shock:
After three sessions you probably ain't ready for nothin...'cept another session.
 

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I believe that the operative word here is 'force.' Move onward and downward, and see how much longer he feels like playing your game. :wink:
 

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achiro said:
2-Dogs said:
DownEast said:
.... He is at the point where he will grab the dummy off the table with me holding my hand on it and tilting it up to help him. .....
Well, sounds like its time to go to the next phase. Put him on the ground. Give him something else to pick up besides a bumper. Move onto walking fetch.

If you're following a book (eg, SmartFetch), turn the page....



,
How many dogs have you taken through FF?

:shock: Where is Kip when you need him? :shock:
After three sessions you probably ain't ready for nothin...'cept another session.
Four. Point was, if she thinks she's got it done then change the set up and she'll see that she still has a ways to go.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
msdaisey said:
I believe that the operative word here is 'force.' Move onward and downward, and see how much longer he feels like playing your game. :wink:
He is only having to move about 1 step at this point. So, I am not taking him off the table yet. My question is when you can tell that he knows how to turn the pressure off and he fetches without the ear pinch, how often in a session do you apply the ear pinch just to reinforce the command?
 

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I don't really remember but thought of something to possibly mix into your routine. Have your hand underneath the collar but don't put your fingers on the ear and say 'fetch'. See if you get a refusal sometimes with that. If you do, all you have to do is grab the ear.

While transitioning to the ground you are pretty sure to get some refusals so I wouldn't be testing it at that point. Its just an idea.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks. I have done that a couple of times. I may get a refusal at first but then ear pinch and I don't get many, if any, more refusals during the session. And that's with the dummy pretty much right in his face. He has progressed to picking the dumbell up off the table right beside him. So, my questions is/was should I give an ear pinch every now and then anyway?
 

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If pup has happily grabbed the bumper when requested then it was a sure sign that it is just happily playing the game right along with you. You have applied pressure as a que to get the bumper and she complied but, if she has never refused and then you "forced" her to do it anyway then she has not been "forced" to do anything yet.
 

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if she has never refused and then you "forced" her to do it anyway then she has not been "forced" to do anything yet.
Yup!!
 

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duckdawg27 said:
If pup has happily grabbed the bumper when requested then it was a sure sign that it is just happily playing the game right along with you. You have applied pressure as a que to get the bumper and she complied but, if she has never refused and then you "forced" her to do it anyway then she has not been "forced" to do anything yet.
Didn't I already say that? :wink: Actually, I did. I had a nice long post about it and it didn't make it onto the thread for some reason. Guess I forgot to push "submit"
What it boils down to is it sounds as if you have a pup with a high retrieving drive. It's still all fun and games. It may be possible but I can honestly say that I have never seen a pup ready to "go to the ground" after just three sessions. I personally wouldn't even be proofing it with freebies at this point. What I want before I go to the ground is to be able to hold the collar, pinch the ear, and hold the dog away from the bumper with them pulling against my resistance to get to the bumper. Especially with a dog like yours, I want to know for sure that the dog really gets what I want when I pinch the ear. If you aren't pinching the ear and don't get a refusal it can have a lot more to do with retrieving desire than it does that the dog is ready to move on.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Achiro,
OK, first of all, I didn't mean to imply that I think that he is ready to come off the table after 3 sessions. That came from someone else posting on this thread. I was merely asking that if I wasn't getting a refusal should still pinch every now and then. Now, after reading what you have said it makes more sense. I am sending you a PM. Thanks!![/quote]
 

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I FF'ed 6 last year and have 5 in FF in different stages right now.

Wish mine were that easy.

You need to be sure that the force creates a real compulsion to hurry up and get it no matter what, not just a fun thing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Well, from what I am reading on here maybe it just seems that it has been easy. Now, it sounds like maybe he is just going for the bumper because of his retrieving desire. I know he knows what the pinch means. I felt like I had really pinched hard enough. But again, it sounds like maybe I haven't...confused yet? I am!!!!!!!!
 

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FF is a conditioning process. Conditioning = Repetition. You pinch before you say fetch every single time until you are completely done with all phases of FF.
 

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A_Fever said:
FF is a conditioning process. Conditioning = Repetition. You pinch before you say fetch every single time until you are completely done with all phases of FF.
Thats a broad encompassing statement that can't possibly be true, partly because there is undoubtably a typo in it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Diagnose this if you don't mind...He is on a table. I started with my hand on his collar and ear. Said fetch with no pinch. I did this several times. The farthest he had to move was about 4 feet. I did not get a refusal...no pinching at all remember...BUT he was SLOW going to the bumper. So, I ear pinched him all the way to the bumper on the next one. The next couple of times he had a snappier response...with no ear pinch. I gave him another pinch to the bumper after those two. Then he had even snappier responses so I ended the session.

From doing what we did tonight and seeing his reaction to more pressure I would guess that he needs more pressure to make his response snappy? Should I apply more pressure and then let him have "freebies" until he starts to slow down again? Or, like someone said, should I be pinching every single time I say fetch until the FF process is over? You guys are really appreciated by the way. Thanks for all the help!
Stephen
 

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At one point with mine, she was grabbing the bumper without command to beat the pinch, and it wasn't retrieving desire. It was her thinking she wanted to get the bumper before I could say anything or pinch. The word 'fetch' didn't mean anything at all. The only thing that meant something to her was having a hand on the collar, and that meant grab the bumper. Maybe yours is doing the same thing, or will be doing the same thing.

This is just another idea but if she is just lunging everywhere for the bumper, enforce the sit until you descide to give the command. Wait a while after you sit the bumper on the table before you say 'fetch'. That ties the act into the command instead of the situation, and may even get a refusal. At one point or nother freebies have to be done to broaden the lesson.

I would really guess that at the point you are at, your dog is not going solely on retrieving desire. She probally isn't truely forced yet, but I don't think it really matters so much. In the end she will be truely forced especially if you end up using continuous collar force on fetch. I don't know how anyone can say a dog responding well to continuous collar pressure isn't forced. My female looks really forced with collar pressure now.

After my dog was picking up off the ground, I was quickly going into walking fetch, and lets face it in walking fetch you are trying out some freebies for sure. If you dog is picking up off the table I would move it to the ground. I basically followed the progression in the old Lardy Article on force fetch. After picking up off the ground, it says to get the dog moving. Being up on a table slows a dog down a little from what I remember because they are a little concerned about being up high.

If I remember correctly, I was pinching everytime until she was picking up off the ground. Then, I backed up closer to her face for the little refinements or basically any time I thought I needed to do that. Basically, you've got to read the dog and try to do your best.
 

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"Diagnose this if you don't mind...He is on a table. I started with my hand on his collar and ear. Said fetch with no pinch. I did this several times. The farthest he had to move was about 4 feet. I did not get a refusal...no pinching at all remember...BUT he was SLOW going to the bumper. So, I ear pinched him all the way to the bumper on the next one. The next couple of times he had a snappier response...with no ear pinch. I gave him another pinch to the bumper after those two. Then he had even snappier responses so I ended the session"

Why are you even doing that? Just follow a process. I promise you at some point you're going to have plenty of time to deal with a refusal. Most likely when she has to pick it up off the table. And I'm not saying try it tomorrow as an experiment.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
DL said:
At one point with mine, she was grabbing the bumper without command to beat the pinch, and it wasn't retrieving desire. It was her thinking she wanted to get the bumper before I could say anything or pinch. The word 'fetch' didn't mean anything at all. The only thing that meant something to her was having a hand on the collar, and that meant grab the bumper. Maybe yours is doing the same thing, or will be doing the same thing.

He is doing exactly the same thing!

This is just another idea but if she is just lunging everywhere for the bumper, enforce the sit until you descide to give the command. Wait a while after you sit the bumper on the table before you say 'fetch'. That ties the act into the command instead of the situation, and may even get a refusal. At one point or nother freebies have to be done to broaden the lesson

I have been holding him back with the sit command for a couple of lessons now.

I would really guess that at the point you are at, your dog is not going solely on retrieving desire. She probally isn't truely forced yet, but I don't think it really matters so much. In the end she will be truely forced especially if you end up using continuous collar force on fetch. I don't know how anyone can say a dog responding well to continuous collar pressure isn't forced. My female looks really forced with collar pressure now.

After my dog was picking up off the ground, I was quickly going into walking fetch, and lets face it in walking fetch you are trying out some freebies for sure. If you dog is picking up off the table I would move it to the ground. I basically followed the progression in the old Lardy Article on force fetch. After picking up off the ground, it says to get the dog moving. Being up on a table slows a dog down a little from what I remember because they are a little concerned about being up high.


If I remember correctly, I was pinching everytime until she was picking up off the ground. Then, I backed up closer to her face for the little refinements or basically any time I thought I needed to do that. Basically, you've got to read the dog and try to do your best.
 
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