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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm trying to help a friend with some drill work. He has a 2yo ylm, good ob, marks well, ff, cc, and TONS of go(out of Finn) The problem he is having (and it is baffling me), is when he is lined up on pile work cues are given I.e; dead bird, good, then back.The instant he leaves your side (about 5-6feet) he turns his head and barks at you enroute to the pile. I have tried sending on different cues/commands with no change. Have tried nicking him when he turns to bark, tried burning to short pile (he is a high 1(TT)), and recalling him after he talks back and no change. HELP! He is a very nice dog and I would like to help my friend plus this is a good situation to learn as a trainer for me. Thanks, Larry
 

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I trained a little choc. female that did this. She didn't turn her head but barked immediately after leaving the line on blinds. I used a bunch of remote sends.(front sit immediately in front of me and cast back). It would disappear. Then occasionally work in a side send. Then transition back to more side sends. It went away but would reoccur periodically. It was not significant enough to get a dq at a HRC hunt test. But she had other issues and was washed out after getting only a SHR title.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
How well was ftp done??

Angie
I think that may be an underlying problem. FTP was shown to my friend in a couple sessions then he was to finish the process on his own. I did send him and gave a back nick back enroute to pile and had no issue. It seems to be only in the 5-6 foot range from being sent from the side.
 

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I'm willing to bet he teases the dog alot with fun bumpers and gets the dog barking at him there too... The dog may be relating the blind to a fun bumper? I'm reaching here, but is this happening?
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I'm willing to bet he teases the dog alot with fun bumpers and gets the dog barking at him there too... The dog may be relating the blind to a fun bumper? I'm reaching here, but is this happening?
No. No barking for anything ( fun bumpers,marks,diversions) but blinds/pile work.
 

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What's the dogs overall attitude on the line when getting ready to run blinds? Does he lock and load when cued or does he do the stevie wonder head swing to avoid looking out on the line you're giving?

I'm wondering if the bark isn't a reaction to the pressure. Whether getting stimulus of some kind or not, the dog knows he HAS to go, which is pressure.

I have a female choco that did all of the above. She was fine on a remote send and once out in the field, she handled really well. I worked with her for a solid year (against the advice of a pro who long before told me she didn't have what it took) and finally retired her to upland hunting and house dog without making it through transition. However, she also had other issues...she just doesn't love the game.

Good luck with him and I hope you're able to get him straightened out.

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I'm wondering if the bark isn't a reaction to the pressure. Whether getting stimulus of some kind or not, the dog knows he HAS to go, which is pressure.


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This was my thought also. I had a male that did this a little bit, but it only came up after FTP. I felt that this was what was going on and then I increased the number of freebies and decreased the number of times I would force in a session. Less force = less vocalizing, and I never had a problem with it after this.
 

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Ok, so the title of the header in the post is "barking on blinds" but the description of the behaviour is all around pile work. This puzzles me (I'm easily confused!) We are also talking of a two year old, which again raises questions in my mind. Why so slow?

Has the dog ever run a genuine blind? That is one without a visible cue, without e-collar stimulus, just a straightforward send out into the wide blue yonder? If so what happens? Does it bark? Does it even go?

My suspicion is that as Rick C suggested and Meleagris concurred, all the FTP pressure has overfaced and confused the dog and has given rise to the noise. Any adverse reaction to a retrieve at five or six feet is a prima facie case of fear and apprehension.

This isn't a suggestion for a cure, so much as a diagnostic tool ... switch off the collar, and run a few memory retrieves into a fixed spot. Then run a genuine un-cued blind into the exact same area from just a few feet, then a few yards, then a long way, and judge the dog's reactions.

If the dog goes with enthusiasm, doesn't yap, and looks confident, then you know the problem isn't within his head on blinds. It most likely lies in the training regime; he's come to expect something unpleasant, confusing, or whatever, in a certain situation and doesn't like it. From that point on you've got something to work with, one way or another, and you can start to analyse what's going on inside him, and work out a strategy.

Just a point ..
Have tried nicking him when he turns to bark, tried burning to short pile
I'm not knocking you, really I'm not, but asking a serious question about this. What did the dog learn from that? How would it actually show him what was wrong and what he needed to do to put things to rights? If those painful corrections have been mis-timed or given in the wrong context, or delivered before the dogs understanding is established, it's perfectly possible that the dog has completely misinterpreted and misunderstood what he's meant to do.

Eug.
 

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Does the dog have any vocal issues during marks?

I've seen a dog do this before, all age dog, that has had problems being vocal but typically it is an excitement bark. This dog even barked when casted at great distances. Dogs bark usually from 3 things. Physical pressure, mental excitement or warning bark. Prepare the dog with mental control and pressure during drills and marking rather than physical pressure, getting the ears pinned back and the dog providing lots of eye contact. Physical pressure usually accentuates the problems.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
Ok, so the title of the header in the post is "barking on blinds" but the description of the behaviour is all around pile work. This puzzles me (I'm easily confused!) We are also talking of a two year old, which again raises questions in my mind. Why so slow?

"Slow as compared to??? He is owned by a first time trying to train his own retriever 70yo man and is basically a lot of dog for this trainer/owner. He doesn't run FT/HT's so he isn't concerned about age compared to skill."


Has the dog ever run a genuine blind? That is one without a visible cue, without e-collar stimulus, just a straightforward send out into the wide blue yonder? If so what happens? Does it bark? Does it even go?

Yes he can run and has run 100+ yrd blinds and goes with a ton of drive, but still barks when sent (with or without wearing a collar).

My suspicion is that as Rick C suggested and Meleagris concurred, all the FTP pressure has overfaced and confused the dog and has given rise to the noise. Any adverse reaction to a retrieve at five or six feet is a prima facie case of


This isn't a suggestion for a cure, so much as a diagnostic tool ... switch off the collar, and run a few memory retrieves into a fixed spot. Then run a genuine un-cued blind into the exact same area from just a few feet, then a few yards, then a long way, and judge the dog's reactions.

Very good advice and I'll suggest that to him.

If the dog goes with enthusiasm, doesn't yap, and looks confident, then you know the problem isn't within his head on blinds. It most likely lies in the training regime; he's come to expect something unpleasant, confusing, or whatever, in a certain situation and doesn't like it. From that point on you've got something to work with, one way or another, and you can start to analyse what's going on inside him, and work out a strategy.



Just a point ..I'm not knocking you, really I'm not, but asking a serious question about this. What did the dog learn from that? How would it actually show him what was wrong and what he needed to do to put things to rights? If those painful corrections have been mis-timed or given in the wrong context, or delivered before the dogs understanding is established, it's perfectly possible that the dog has completely misinterpreted and misunderstood what he's meant to do.

Eug.
I would not respond if I thought I was being slighted, and as for the "painful" correction he is a TT high 1 level and does not vocalize unless it's at level 2 medium. I never put that much pressure on a dog that obviously is confused and is cursed with a unregimented training program. As I stated in my original post "I'm helping my friend out" I'm not his everyday handler/trainer. As for the timing and context of the corrections, I have always prided myself in understanding the situation before making any corrections and I time the justified ones as quickly as the unwanted action starts to happen.
 

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I would also add that a dog running on a TT high 1 isn't really collar conditioned. I would assume that the dog can barely even feel a 1. Have you placed the collar on your own leg or arm and done a 1? It's barely a scratch. How high has the dog been conditioned to? Even though the dog vocalizes at a 2, that doesn't mean it's conditioned and may just be complying instead of truly being conditioned to as high as you'd need to go. Nagging a dog with a 1 versus using the true level needed to get the point across may cause the dog to be aware of the collar but possibly even confused as not enough force is given. This in turn will possibly cause nervousness in the dog and mental instability causing the excitement bark.
 
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