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That Dickinson is a sweet looking shotgun! I had my FAIR stock fitted similarly and, in cold weather, have found some issues with the top of the stock catching on my vest. I'm thinking about looking for another FAIR and leaving the stock alone for hunting. Of course, hunting with Goldens and Labradors, cold weather is a lot easier on the dogs. First trip out to eastern MT this year I really had to watch the dog because of the temperatures. Even keeping him close and not hunting thick stuff (classic northern plains cover and not dense CRP or crops) he works hard and got warm pretty quickly. Second trip we hunted in a lot longer bursts because it was a lot cooler. And then shot a deer in the evening....

The UTV would make a sweet addition for bird hunting. I look at them longingly, but would have to sell those Ithaca Classic Doubles to afford one.

You have some nice firearms there, my friend.

Always had a soft spot for Tollers, though I've never owned one. Several friends have them, but if I go for another breed it will be a Llewellyn - I've had two. These MT plains are big country and a retriever doesn't really cover enough country for grouse and huns. Fine for mountain grouse, pheasant cover, and obviously for waterfowl, but eastern MT and the Dakotas are big and a pointing dog would be a nice addition.

And back to upland hunting - hunting a setter and a retriever as a pair is beauty in motion if they work together. The retriever working in closer and hitting key, tough spots and the setter sweeping out further covering more ground.

The weathers a little shaky but all this talking about bird hunting is making me want to load the truck.

And the spaceship gun? What's that saying "if the shotgun fits"....?
 

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Double triggers are a pain with gloves in the cold. But do have their place IMO.
84999

My favorite pheasant gun the last few years has been a SxS front loader. All upland shotguns should have an English stock. Decades of using single trigger guns is a hard habit to break but I can see why people love double triggers.
 

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Interested in any and all help I can get!

Sad to see so little love for a nice O/U. Feel like mine would look like a spaceship to many on here.


View attachment 84998
Seriously you need to be leader of the pack. Until you are it is an uphill battle and he will continue to ignore commands. Of course I don't know everything about your situation but IME it is classic with a Toller. As I said they are not a Lab or Golden. Although my pup went to puppy class last night and a young lab gave him a run for the money and he, no they both, needed it. Hate to generalize but being stubborn and a brat have all the classic sympontons of a power struggle.

Nothing wrong with a P.F.S. but I spent the extra money for a custom wood comb.



Until I could work through the yips and put the EELL wood back on.



That Dickinson is a sweet looking shotgun! I had my FAIR stock fitted similarly and, in cold weather, have found some issues with the top of the stock catching on my vest. I'm thinking about looking for another FAIR and leaving the stock alone for hunting. Of course, hunting with Goldens and Labradors, cold weather is a lot easier on the dogs. First trip out to eastern MT this year I really had to watch the dog because of the temperatures. Even keeping him close and not hunting thick stuff (classic northern plains cover and not dense CRP or crops) he works hard and got warm pretty quickly. Second trip we hunted in a lot longer bursts because it was a lot cooler. And then shot a deer in the evening....

The UTV would make a sweet addition for bird hunting. I look at them longingly, but would have to sell those Ithaca Classic Doubles to afford one.

You have some nice firearms there, my friend.

Always had a soft spot for Tollers, though I've never owned one. Several friends have them, but if I go for another breed it will be a Llewellyn - I've had two. These MT plains are big country and a retriever doesn't really cover enough country for grouse and huns. Fine for mountain grouse, pheasant cover, and obviously for waterfowl, but eastern MT and the Dakotas are big and a pointing dog would be a nice addition.

And back to upland hunting - hunting a setter and a retriever as a pair is beauty in motion if they work together. The retriever working in closer and hitting key, tough spots and the setter sweeping out further covering more ground.

The weathers a little shaky but all this talking about bird hunting is making me want to load the truck.

And the spaceship gun? What's that saying "if the shotgun fits"....?
Like all of this, every word. My first "real" bird dog was a Ryman a long time ago. To be honest missed the beauty of the point and a few years ago tried a Lew rescue. But he ranged 1,000+ yards and in wolf country drove me nuts. Ended up going to a dentist in ND that hunted on horseback.

Yeah I have had the same thought to have a pointer to pin the bird and a Toller to run in to flush on command. Have a brace of Tollers now but...

I only waterfowl hunt when I get drawn in SD while pheasant hunting. Have tolled in a number of birds early in the morning before we can phez hunt and it is worth getting up at O'dark thirty. But the ducks only fall for that trick one time after you shoot at them LOL.
 

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I'm in the Mission Valley, so waterfowl hunting is easy and plentiful. And upland hunting on the valley floor and in the surrounding mountains can be a bit risky. Wolves are much of an issue (as far as I know) but if you want to see a grizzly bear, this is a good place. The bears do love the corn fields here, too. And most of this is reservation so nonnatives are restricted to pheasants, huns, and waterfowl. There are a lot of grouse in the mountains when you get off the reservation. And a bear or two. If I want to hunt 5 minutes from home, its ducks and geese.

I've been lucky; both of the setters hunted fairly close. I did pick them for that and it worked. Like you, 1,000 yards years is a bit much without a horse.
 

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Discussion Starter #65
Seriously you need to be leader of the pack. Until you are it is an uphill battle and he will continue to ignore commands. Of course I don't know everything about your situation but IME it is classic with a Toller. As I said they are not a Lab or Golden. Although my pup went to puppy class last night and a young lab gave him a run for the money and he, no they both, needed it. Hate to generalize but being stubborn and a brat have all the classic sympontons of a power struggle.
I’ve seen this “power struggle” mentioned numerous times, both on here and elsewhere. I’m curious what this looks like in practice, and what would be a way to rectify it?
 

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"Basic commands for flushing" ? no lead and let the dog go. Stopping or pointing or only being sent ,you can add your own.
 

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SEE! all it takes is to railroad the thread,, then folks chime in to get it back on track,,and stiffle low lifes like Gooser!! Bad gooser bad! Stay on point! or flush, depending on how you is wound! There has been some seriouse beautiful guns posted! A compliant dog,and a beautiful gun!! the upland fields are a true pleasure, even by yourself!!

seriously,, I would feel honored to just be within 10 feet of those guns! Masked of course! :)
 
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First sits to a throw..Russell terrorist! Boss dawg! future FC! :)

 

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It is complicated, as is the Toller :)

If @Eric Johnson is who I think who he is then thanks to Toller-L back in the day we know a lot more know more than we used to. Even though they have been around for a long time.

I am the technical specialist for imaging systems at the US #1 ranked medical institution after retiring from the Navy more than 25 years ago. They give me technical writers to interpret what I try to say LOL. But a good start is my current pup with a copy of Cesar Millan's Leader of the Pack pushed to the side.



It is as good as any if not one of the best IMO.

Over the years the biddability of the Toller has progressed a LOT! But to have a good hunter you are more times than not going to have deal with relationship issues, and power struggles. Gut instinct is that you have a hunter on your hands.

The black nosed Toller in my avatar was from a long time ago and when I moved here and when a wolf pack would start howling he wanted to go join them, I had to stand on the ecollar. He also bit the father of my current pup on the face when he bothered him almost took his eye out.



He recovered and the president of the NDTRC-USA ended up showing him for me at the National Specialty



We were the only ones to pass the BRT test he was less than a year old.



But the whole process really turned me off to test in general. The bad throws, etc. I kill birds, a lot of birds. Because of my dogs. Call me a meat hunter LOL. We kill birds.

Tollers are wild compared to many dogs and like I said more like a Chessie than a Lab or Golden. Thanks to breeders that give a damn they are less "wild" than they used to be 30 years ago due to the selective breeding of traits of those that look for overall temperament. I was one of those that was that was worried when they were accepted by the AKC that it was the beginning of the end. So far that has not been the case IMO. For most breeders anyhow but there are some looking at the money only, but when we had Toller-L we could notify others easier than we can now of breeches. Eric did a service in a limited Gene Pool that many don't realize in addition to general education. And is up there along Alison Strang IMO.

My breeder works at University of ND animal science lab. Co ownership for dad so had to pay for my pup, but got reimbursement for the genetic testing. And did spend a lot of money on MANY tests before breeding. Which is why I went with Laurie when I met her 20 years ago at the BYC in Mn. when I moved here.

But bottom line already at 9 weeks I know that I have to be leader of the pack. Unless I want to go through hell. LOL my mouse has been chewed up and took me awhile to type this.

His name is Jack after my Ex FIL who was the Toller Rescue Coordinator back when NSDTR-USA Region 1 went from Va. to Maine before they put in Region 7. Jack and I remained best friends after his daughter went to go "find" herself and left me with 2 sons. He passed away ~10 years ago shooting triples at Rock Mountain SC in Pa.of a massive heart attack. Called me the night before the shoot and said he was nervous for some reason and wished I could be there with him. My favorite memories in my life of are my son, me and him- 3 generations of us hunting grouse in NC Pa. with our Tollers. Life does not getting better than that. At least to me.
 

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You know Eric? I knew Eric back when he had Goldens on the old Compuserve Dog Forum. Which was a listserve, a lot less sophisticated in those days (the forum, not Eric).
 

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You know Eric? I knew Eric back when he had Goldens on the old Compuserve Dog Forum. Which was a listserve, a lot less sophisticated in those days (the forum, not Eric).
No never met Eric but would be honored to. He set up Toller-L if it is the same Eric I am thinking of.

My breeder that I have used for awhile now used to breed Goldens but went to Tollers for health reasons. She has a contribution on the AKC website for the 10 reasons for getting a Toller and not getting a Toller. Starts off with a Toller is not a Golden Retriever.

10 Reasons To Get A Toller And 10 Reasons Not To Get A Toller – American Kennel Club
 

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You know Eric? I knew Eric back when he had Goldens on the old Compuserve Dog Forum. Which was a listserve, a lot less sophisticated in those days (the forum, not Eric).
Dang just realized you said Compuserve. There was a time we used to download drivers for computer systems back when you had to set DIP switches. From Compuserve.

Usernet. Listservers. Then came first class Bulletin Board Systems.

Thank you for the blast from the past! Not saying we are getting old but yeah it was a lot easier in a lot of ways...

Especially coming from the tech spec for electronic content management systems. Sigh damn maybe I am getting old. Nah like a good wine getting better with age. Just need to keep from turning into vinegar :-(
 

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I was not going to reply again on this thread until the comment of "10 for and 10 against". About 20+ years ago I was running a young Lab in an HRC Started test. I had never seen a Toller before. The test was divided and our water series was first. I don't remember the first retrieve. The second duck was thrown twenty yards out into the long Gravel Pond at Bong on the south end. The Toller swam out, grabbed that duck and then proceeded all the way across the pond and all the way around the long end back to the handler. It is a good sized pond. Then we went to land. The section of land was bigger than the pond. A duck was thrown about 5O yards away and the Toller proceeded to hunt every square inch of that sizable "section of land"....at least twice....before finally stumbling onto the first duck. I am assuming he got lucky on the second.....don't remember. Everyone was polite......including the judges. :love:
 

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KwickLabs said:
I was not going to reply again on this thread until the comment of "10 for and 10 against". About 20+ years ago I was running a young Lab in an HRC Started test. I had never seen a Toller before. The test was divided and our water series was first. I don't remember the first retrieve. The second duck was thrown twenty yards out into the long Gravel Pond at Bong on the south end. The Toller swam out, grabbed that duck and then proceeded all the way across the pond and all the way around the long end back to the handler. It is a good sized pond. Then we went to land. The section of land was bigger than the pond. A duck was thrown about 5O yards away and the Toller proceeded to hunt every square inch of that sizable "section of land"....at least twice....before finally stumbling onto the first duck. I am assuming he got lucky on the second.....don't remember. Everyone was polite......including the judges. :love:
Can you please clarify where 10 for 10 was mentioned? And exactly what the hell you are talking about LOL.

Yeah I have my passport when I cross the River. Shoot a lot in Wi. and have a lot of friends I shoot and hunt with from Wi I am close to the border. Guessing your aren't from that area in Wi. called Madison that isn't considered reality, but maybe you are?

After being in other urban areas like Milwaukee during the NRA convention thinking you may be close to another Urban area there. Ideologically anyhow.

My youngest son and I used to shoot in the blizzard league Mn. vs. Wi. after we moved here more than 20 years ago. At the age of 15 he was class runner up at the Mn. Trap shoot. I hate trap and would rather shoot any other venue.

He was high gun at Gunslick with a prefect score of 50x at the age of 15 with a B. Rizzini he took from me and I helped him convert.

At the Mn. State ATA shoot he beat out almost 200 people for top gun with a 193x200 in class.

First prize in Wi. is a bottle of booze. In Mn. is a meat tray. They were confused what to do at Holmen when he won. Finally they said Dad get up here and take this bottle of Southern Comfort LOL

My youngest son with Cayuga Sheshequin Sniper a long time ago.



He ended up with advanced Stage IVB cancer and is now a cancer survivor 4 years later. Before and after. Moving here was worth it. Based on ideologically reasons to begin with.




I could make a lot of comment on labs, some good and some bad. But I am going to be kind. Because I am getting old. And does not mater the breed there is good and bad in all of them.

But don't push me or I WILL push back. And hard.
 

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There was a Toller club member in S Dakota who hunted the dickens out of his Toller in the fields. He worked for the conservation commission teaching gun safety. Sort of a dream job for all and he used to write almost epic tales in "dog speak" for lack of a better term. Can't recall his name now.....

I've done very limited training with my Tollers by way of flushing over the years. I guess I've depended on their urge to get birds once they get a whiff and then a sit command. Once they are sitting, I can direct them with a simple "over" to send them one way or the other. I learned to "sit" the dog long before it had too much distance. Tollers are very quick to catch what you mean in a training situation. Whether they will obey the command depends very much on a reward of some kind. In the field, an "over" that is quickly accompanied by bird scent is all the reward I've ever had to use. Now, what this means is that I don't have a really nice sweeping flushing pattern but . . . it works for me.

Have to tell a story. My dog Cheyenne was the first Toller to get an Upland pass. (I believe Paul Young's wife had the first Toller to earn the Upland title.) Anyway, Cheyenne had two passes when she was struck with a monumental case of RMSF and never was able work in the field again. However, at the first upland event we were at, as we were just starting into the field, a bird went up. She was still at my side so I gave a "sit" command. The bird circled directly overhead and she sat in a circle at my feet. Round and round the bird went and round and round the Toller went. Finally the chap shot and the bird landed about 5 feet from me. Cheyenne snatched it and looked at me as if to say, "what do you need me for?"

So, I guess the only suggestion I have to offer is that a couple of basic commands that are a part of field training is all that I have needed. We did everything with a "sit", "over", and "here".

(Really nice photos by the way.)
 

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No never met Eric but would be honored to. He set up Toller-L if it is the same Eric I am thinking of.
Oh, me too. Some of us off that old CompuServe Dog forum met face to face, but I've not met Eric personally except via the internet. In addition to Toller- L, he's also an administrator on K9data if I remember correctly.

And he just did an admirable job of trying to keep on topic.
 

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A compliant dog,and a beautiful gun!! the upland fields are a true pleasure, even by yourself!!
For sure!
Two by your side and a side by side takes more than just wishing it so.
85003

Having two flushers and two by your side and a side by side is just better,
85004


Then there is those 'Over and Unders'
85005

No matter the preferred combination or how good it looks, not everyone hits a bird with a 'Purdey' ;)
 
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