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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi guys... I read a bunch here but rarely post.

I have a 10.5 mnth old YLM who is following TRT. We train 4-5 days per week... maybe 6. I've become somewhat addicted! :) I have a very experienced friend that is mentoring me as needed... but I'm bored today and thought I'd see what you guys think.

He's been through CC, FF, FTP, Sit to Pile, 3 handed casting. In my inexpreienced opinion he has done very well to this point despite my inexperience and frustration at times.

The problem I'm having with him is when I move from a single backpile at 100 yards to putting out one of the over piles to start T work. Over piles are about 20 yards from the line and about 25 yrds to either side of the center line.

He'll line the back pile pretty well until one of the over piles are out... then he acts like he's lost his mind, gets confused, bored or lazy? He lines the Back Pile a few times but then will start trying to go to the over piles from both a side send and\or a remote send. On the remote send if the right over pile is out and he's sitting at the apex, I'll give a left back he'll rotate 270 degrees (in the correct direction) and go to the right over pile. At this point I have tried whistle sitting him and giving him another left back or .. re-sit at the apex... move closer to him and send again. Sometimes he'll take the proper line, others he'll try for the over pile. Been 4 days of introducing the over piles and I've seen little improvement. This morning I didn't put either of the over piles out and just lined him to the back pile with no stops... no problem.

Is this an expected response at this point, an I expecting too much? Been using very little correction other than forcing to the back pile if I see a change in momentum, but usually don't see much once he's headed to the correct pile.

He's also started bugging... or I think that's what it is. He'll return to heal but will look everywhere but the back pile. He did some of this this morning as well, but not nearly as much or as soon as the three previous sessions with one of the over piles out.

What do you guys think?
 

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Without being there to see things firsthand, take the following as something to think about.

I would consider treating the T as you did when introducing 3-handed casting. Set the right-side out; move up to the dog; throw the bumper back (over his right shoulder) to the back-pile, send him from that remote position back to the back pile; do the same thing over his left shoulder and send him back to the back pile. With him front sitting you, throw a bumper over to the rightside pile, send him over to it. Then send him back again (left and right shoulders), then throw to the right again.

When he gets that, then stop throwing the bumper over this shoulders and send to back as left then right backs. Continue to send to the right.

When he gets that, then introduce left pile. Go through the same sequence as described - you may drop the bumpers being thrown over his shoulders if he is taking the left/righ back casts ok.

Then increase distance from you, go through same sequence (you'll drop the bumpers over his left/right shoulders as the back pile it too far away to throw to, plus he should have the turning part down fairly well - if not, then you can work on the turning part with a different drill, so don't sweat it at this distance).

Then increase distance from back pile and go through the same sequence.

Increase distance slowly, be patient and you'll be fine. Keep pressure off the dog except for lack of come/sit/go; use attrition for all else - you're teaching him something new.
 

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Hi guys... I read a bunch here but rarely post.

I have a 10.5 mnth old YLM who is following TRT. We train 4-5 days per week... maybe 6. I've become somewhat addicted! :) I have a very experienced friend that is mentoring me as needed... but I'm bored today and thought I'd see what you guys think.

He's been through CC, FF, FTP, Sit to Pile, 3 handed casting. In my inexpreienced opinion he has done very well to this point despite my inexperience and frustration at times.

The problem I'm having with him is when I move from a single backpile at 100 yards to putting out one of the over piles to start T work. Over piles are about 20 yards from the line and about 25 yrds to either side of the center line.

He'll line the back pile pretty well until one of the over piles are out... then he acts like he's lost his mind, gets confused, bored or lazy? He lines the Back Pile a few times but then will start trying to go to the over piles from both a side send and\or a remote send. On the remote send if the right over pile is out and he's sitting at the apex, I'll give a left back he'll rotate 270 degrees (in the correct direction) and go to the right over pile. At this point I have tried whistle sitting him and giving him another left back or .. re-sit at the apex... move closer to him and send again. Sometimes he'll take the proper line, others he'll try for the over pile. Been 4 days of introducing the over piles and I've seen little improvement. This morning I didn't put either of the over piles out and just lined him to the back pile with no stops... no problem.

Is this an expected response at this point, an I expecting too much? Been using very little correction other than forcing to the back pile if I see a change in momentum, but usually don't see much once he's headed to the correct pile.

He's also started bugging... or I think that's what it is. He'll return to heal but will look everywhere but the back pile. He did some of this this morning as well, but not nearly as much or as soon as the three previous sessions with one of the over piles out.

What do you guys think?
After you finished CC and went to intro of indirect pressure with simple casting...
did the pup try to go to side piles, especially when sent with rh back immediately after picking up the rh over?
did the pup have a stable reaction to indirect pressure?
did the pup have a behavioral change after applying indirect pressure (do it right and not make the same error)?

Sounds as if you did a good job in establishing the pile and working back to the baseline (about 100 yards). Dog is running to the pile with momentum, no flaring, nice tight sit on the whistle, etc. Is that correct?

When you introduce the side pile you should be about 2/3s of the way to the pile at the long T. Sounds like you are introducing the short T first. Is that correct?

When introducing the side piles you should have the dog at the cross of the long T in a front finish position and be doing simple casting from there. How did that go?
 

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If the dog acts confused then he is confused. Your description is that of a confused dog. You read him correctly. When there is confusion, simplify and let the dog experience success. I have seen many people who respond to this problem by just doing more repetitions and the more failures and frustration the more repetitions they do. In my opinion, that is not the best way. Don't be afraid to backtrack. Also, don't forget that dogs progress at different rates. You might have to slow down. And it might help to treat any program you use as not a set of rules but more like a set of guidelines, especially when it comes to rate of progress. My opinion.
 

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Good Question and Info! I am at the same point except my golden female is 13 months and I train her 2-3 times a week. She wants to line the over piles instead of going to the back pile. I found out that I needed to line her better to make sure she knew where I wanted her to go. She also knows 3 handed casting, obviously, but when I stop her at the the apex of the over piles, she is dead set on going left or right over regardless if I send her back. I started closing the distance to put more influence on her and she does better. She also has a loopy sit that I am having a hard time making sharper. She always loop sits to the right.
 

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Good Question and Info! I am at the same point except my golden female is 13 months and I train her 2-3 times a week. She wants to line the over piles instead of going to the back pile. I found out that I needed to line her better to make sure she knew where I wanted her to go. She also knows 3 handed casting, obviously, but when I stop her at the the apex of the over piles, she is dead set on going left or right over regardless if I send her back. I started closing the distance to put more influence on her and she does better. She also has a loopy sit that I am having a hard time making sharper. She always loop sits to the right.
Some ideas. Simplify. No side piles. Do more backs than overs. Stop her with the long line, bring her back to the apex, give her a back from heel, and reward her. Be patient. And don't forget that this may be boring for most dogs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I don't interpret this as a casting problem... more of a lining problem. He knows his casts and does good in 3-handed casting. But like Robbiecox he wants to line to the over piles... kind of like taking the easy way out. Even when he's at the apex on a back cast he'll try to go to the over piles... but if I put him back to 3 handed casting with piles at equal distances he'll do fine.

He runs to back pile from the baseline with good momentum, no flaring and has a good square sit to the whistle. I can nearly sit him on the pile. Problems magically disappear away when I take the over piles go away. I have introduced the short over piles first... the longer over piles seem like they'd be a disaster at this point... no?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
And don't forget that this may be boring for most dogs.
I'm actually wondering if this isn't part of my problem. We've been on pile work and now Single T for quite a while, I have days when I'm bored with it... almost like I can see the dog saying "You've got to be kidding me! This again!" after sending him to the back pile 2-3 times. I say this because the first couple of sends he does fine... then breaks down on subsequent sends.
 

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Without being there to see things firsthand, take the following as something to think about.

I would consider treating the T as you did when introducing 3-handed casting. Set the right-side out; move up to the dog; throw the bumper back (over his right shoulder) to the back-pile, send him from that remote position back to the back pile; do the same thing over his left shoulder and send him back to the back pile. With him front sitting you, throw a bumper over to the rightside pile, send him over to it. Then send him back again (left and right shoulders), then throw to the right again.

When he gets that, then stop throwing the bumper over this shoulders and send to back as left then right backs. Continue to send to the right.

When he gets that, then introduce left pile. Go through the same sequence as described - you may drop the bumpers being thrown over his shoulders if he is taking the left/righ back casts ok.

Then increase distance from you, go through same sequence (you'll drop the bumpers over his left/right shoulders as the back pile it too far away to throw to, plus he should have the turning part down fairly well - if not, then you can work on the turning part with a different drill, so don't sweat it at this distance).

Then increase distance from back pile and go through the same sequence.

Increase distance slowly, be patient and you'll be fine. Keep pressure off the dog except for lack of come/sit/go; use attrition for all else - you're teaching him something new.

My opinion is the same as above, go to Mini-T. You will treat it as a larger 3-handed casting drill that is based on the larger T. This should clear up the CONFUSSION for the pup. He's just not relating the single back pile with all these news ones at the sides.
 

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I'm actually wondering if this isn't part of my problem. We've been on pile work and now Single T for quite a while, I have days when I'm bored with it... almost like I can see the dog saying "You've got to be kidding me! This again!" after sending him to the back pile 2-3 times. I say this because the first couple of sends he does fine... then breaks down on subsequent sends.
Are you doing any marks during the day (same or different session time)?

And are you throwing any birds for those marks?

Nothing wrong with stopping the T work for a couple of days and coming back to it.

...balance...
 

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I'm actually wondering if this isn't part of my problem. We've been on pile work and now Single T for quite a while, I have days when I'm bored with it... almost like I can see the dog saying "You've got to be kidding me! This again!" after sending him to the back pile 2-3 times. I say this because the first couple of sends he does fine... then breaks down on subsequent sends.
Mine is exactly the same way. She is definitely bored with this. Like you say, after 3-4 casts to the back pile she starts bugging. She is bored and doesn't want to keep doing it. I try to always do 2-4 backs to each over. I can't get many reps over 10 because it is Hot as Hades in Arkansas. When she starts bugging, I do indirect pressure by re-heeling with a nick and re-lining to the back pile. I think she thinks she is smarter than I am and knows what I want. For instance, if I stop her at the apex, I am stopping her to go over...She thinks, "Why did he stop me at the apex of the over piles if I am just going to get another cast to exactly where I was going...the back pile. I am going over!"

But, having said all that, I am sure this is just part of the process that you and your dog have in becoming a team. She has to trust you that you are stopping her for a reason and will send her to the correct location for the retrieve.
 

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There are many way to start the left and right overs. I use the boards first before putting out bumpers, so I am clear in my head that the dog know it. What I have found out, that most of the time its not the the dog that is confused, it the trainer. What to do when the dog is not responing as you would like. Do you have a program to follow? If so backup. if not get one.
Keith
 

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Keith in OP original post he states he is following TRT -- Total Retriever Training.

Dave
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Are you doing any marks during the day (same or different session time)?

And are you throwing any birds for those marks?

Nothing wrong with stopping the T work for a couple of days and coming back to it.

...balance...
Haven't been doing much in the way of marks and haven't used birds in quite a while.

I did take last weekend off from training and just had some fun at the lake on Saturday and didn't do much of anything other than some three handed casting at the house on Sunday. My Monday training session was back to T-drill and was the best of the week. Since then... no so good. Thought we made a breakthrough on Monday.

So what does that tell me? He's out of balance....
 

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If Ive read the posts correctly, the dog is sucking in to the over piles, despite knowing his casts. When I introduced my over piles I used two white electrical fence posts with a piece of white surveyors tape on each pole. Plus a pole marking my back pile. Try running the dog to a back pile with just the white poles (no bumpers at the overs). This might help the dog get used to pushing back past the distraction of the overs. Plus if he goes to an over he doesn't get the reward of a bumper. Run it like that for a day or two then try introducing your bumpers at the over piles. I have noticed that getting into a battle over blown sit whistles during T work can erode the dogs enthusiasm. Hope it all works out. Keep sessions short and work in some marks later in the day. Good luck.
 

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... I have introduced the short over piles first... the longer over piles seem like they'd be a disaster at this point... no?
So you are runnning the dog from the baseline between the two short over piles and expecting him to understand not to go there but rather continue down the center to the pile that is 100 yards away.

You should stop what you're doing and go back and review the Lardy TRT DVD because you are not following the procedure correctly. Go back and read my previous post. You start intro to the side piles at the long T but you are not running from the base line. You are running from the apex of the long T. So you are doing the same simple casting here that you did before CC. The only difference is that the dog is not on a lead and the piles are 20-25 yards away rather than 25 feet.

I see lots of posts here telling you how to get from point A to point Z without going to b, c, d. They may not be familiar with Lardy's method of going through TT or they may not have picked up on the fact that you are doing it wrong. You don't need to introduce anything outside of Lardy's TRT, you just need to make sure you actually do it the way he says to in the DVDs.
 

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Keith in OP original post he states he is following TRT -- Total Retriever Training.

Dave
That's what he stated but his description of what he is doing is not following TRT.
 

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