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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So a few weeks back I saw a post on here that was about bitch lines. This post got me thinking ( funny I know)…….. So I may be putting to much thought into this but a quality bitch line should be out of a quality dog line. The performance we seek in our dogs should be a sex link, hence quality, follows quality.

So what I am saying is a top producing stud should produce top producing bitch dogs. If the dam of the top bitch to be is out of quality, and by quality I mean the performance aspects we are looking for.

So if this holds true to a sex link and I find the top bitch line I like I should seek a dog out of her, and not a bitch pup.

If I find a performance stud I like seek one of his daughters.

What do you think, are the performance genes we seek a sex link??
 

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You can try and figure it out but good bitches don't always produce either with equally good multiple different sires. A good nick is still an elusive phenomenon, as well as pre-potency. If it were that easy someone would have figured it out by now. Buy from the best bitch you can and train with the best, and it is still a crapshoot because there is a difference in phenominal pups in a litter and common ones. We still don't know what genes are involved in marking, and it is probably multiple genes.
 

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I have to agree with Nancy, genetics can be a crapshoot. We can, and do, stack the deck in our favor by chosing pups from dogs and bitches who have health clearances and preformance titles in their pedigree. However, there are just too many genetic variations to turn the selection process into a strictly a scientic equation. Trying to turn it into a gender related equation is even less viable. Mapping of the canine genotype has been completed but we don't know which genes, or combination of genes, ties to which natural ability.

As for selecting the best dog for you, take some time and start the process with some self evaluation. How good of a trainer are you? How much time do you have to train? Money for training equipment? A local group to help? How much dog are your prepared to train?
A great dog can be a disaster in an entry level home. An average dog can excel in a great training environement.

Pick the best litter that you can and have the breeder match the pup to your ability and goals. Like Nancy said, there is variation within a litter in regards to ability and drive.

Note - IMO titles are wonderful, but titles don't make the dog. I know of a number of hunting dogs that are GREAT dogs. Healthy, intelligent, hard working, talented and still very easy to live with. However their owners never pursued advanced titles. Having one of these dogs on my dogs pedigree is not a disadvantage in my opinion.
 

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I know that in the racing world, there are stallions that are considered "broodmare sires". Secretariat was one--as a super star himself, he was bred a lot but none of his offspring were anywhere near as talented as he was however his daughters produced multiple champion graded stakes winners. I suspect if anyone followed statistics there are retrievers that didn't produce offspring commensurate with their own abilities but their daughters did. There are a few Chesapeakes that fit this description; one that comes to mind is MHR Chestnut Hills Ironwood Oak***MH. I don't think he had that many QAA offspring but his daughters produced some of the best all age FT Chesapeakes of the past 10 years. The problem with retrievers is they take longer to become top competitors so by the time you'd determine a 'broodmare sire' trend, there may be few if any breedable daughters left.
 

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A great dog can be a disaster in an entry level home. An average dog can excel in a great training environment.

Pick the best litter that you can and have the breeder match the pup to your ability and goals. Like Nancy said, there is variation within a litter in regards to ability and drive.
I think the above should be repeated.

There are probably a lot of us on RTF who can think of puppies who were potentially great, but did not go to the best of trainers so did not realize their potential. We can probably think of his/her littermates who went to the best of trainers and did realize their potential.

Not all puppies in the same litter will have the same talents. Not all puppies in the same litter will realize their potential.
When a breeding nicks, sometimes the repeat breeding is not as good, but then again sometimes it is. I believe that where those puppies go and what those new owners do with their puppies is a big factor as to how they will turn out.

Helen
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Julie R You know what I am talking about. I believe the others missed the boat somewhere....I have been into performance animals all of my life and this same simple concept has held true. Alot of folks miss it because they dont see out of the box
 

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Julie R You know what I am talking about. I believe the others missed the boat somewhere....I have been into performance animals all of my life and this same simple concept has held true. Alot of folks miss it because they dont see out of the box
All of this has been tracked in Labradors, producing females, producing males. One only has to go to one of the databases and you can trace them. It still isn't simple.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
All of this has been tracked in Labradors, producing females, producing males. One only has to go to one of the databases and you can trace them. It still isn't simple.
Nancy You dont see , or understand what I am speaking of and that is ok
 

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Shelby, it's been a long time since Biology 2104, but I think you're basing your premise on X-linked traits, both recessive and dominant? Unfortunately, since we don't know which genes produce the best performance traits, or whether those traits are dominant or recessive, if there even is a sex linkage to the desired traits, and just how much of the performance traits are hereditary versus environmental...we would just pick the best available puppy from the best available breeding with the sex a matter of personal preference. Then go train it up.
 

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Unfortunately, since we don't know which genes produce the best performance traits, or whether those traits are dominant or recessive, if there even is a sex linkage to the desired traits, and just how much of the performance traits are hereditary versus environmental...
Exactly!
What do you think are the "performance genes" that make a great dog? Marking is paramount in dogs, which for all we know may be a combination of genes and definately is not a clear cut dominant and recessive inheritance because superior markers are bred to superior markers all the time and common markers can still be produced. Speed is the most important trait in race horses and one theory is the mares produced the necessary genetics on the X chromosome that the Y males lack but environment is still very crucial. I don't think you can compare the two together by lumping them into "performance traits" unless you know what traits are essential for the outstanding animal.
 

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I agree with Ed. I don't have a clue.
The longer you play at the higher levels the less inclined one is to deal in absolutes :), in either the dam or sire arena. There is a reason beyond having the best of bloodlines for some folks who seem to make very intelligent choices in their program & hence have relatively few culls, by our standards. While their training partners pick ahead of them from a litter & have relatively little success.

Beyond that I don't have a clue either!
 

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So what I am saying is a top producing stud should produce top producing bitch dogs.


Hey Shelby,

I appreciate the train of thought you've developed, but as reasonable as it might seem genetics doesn't support your conclusion. Maybe a good male should produce top females, but there is no evidence to support that idea as a predictable outcome. Sorry to say so, but it's just wishful thinking.

Daniel
 

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Julie R You know what I am talking about. I believe the others missed the boat somewhere....I have been into performance animals all of my life and this same simple concept has held true. Alot of folks miss it because they dont see out of the box
There could be an explanation for this perception.

It seems more likely that bitches (& mares?) with high-profile sires will be bred (produce offspring) even if they are not of the same extraordinary as their sires. The bitch owners can then go to a quality sire and rarely get turned down (unless for reasons of health screenings) because the "paper" is so attractive.

OTOH, the sons of the high-profile sire must prove themselves in competition before owners of quality bitches will consider using that sire. The sons, generally speaking, will not be bred based on the strength of their "paper". Using Julie's example, if a Secretariat son was not, himself, as successful as his sire, who would bring their mares to that son? OTOH, if someone had a Secretariat mare with an unproven racing record, might the owner still seek out a good sire and breed her well?

So ... maybe the sons of the high-profile sire could also produce well, but very few people breed to them to find out.

I recall a story told to me by a horse person (Arabs) about a wonderful stallion (talking conformation here) who produced many beautiful sons. None of those beautiful sons seemed capable of reproducing their fine qualities, or those of their father. However, there was one "ugly" ("common"?) son who became a very successful producer of quality.

Perhaps someone has a similar story in dogs?

Perhaps conformation is a good place to study (since the genetics of many of the conformational factors is also undetermined in simple terms), and it is less dependent upon the training & environment than performance traits. It may help one understand how the performance genetics may also work.

We sometimes complain that some negative trait from 4 or 5 generations back can show up in a litter we breed today. One experienced breeder said that qualities seen 6 generations back can turn up when we thought they were extinguished. If this can happen with negative traits, does it also happen with positive traits?

I am NOT suggesting you stop at the next farmhouse with puppies for sale, I am suggesting that there may be an incremental value in having multiple generations of "good" genes even when they are not readily visible in the generation standing before you.

Even in the BYB huntin' dawg world, a person with an "adequate" bitch would likely seek out a mate who is a good hunting dog v. one who has not been out hunting; or one who is only as "adequate" as the bitch. We tend to follow the titles (and I am not faulting that in and of itself), but that can act as an adverse selection for the sons v. the daughters of a notable sire.
 

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We have a nice bred MH bitch out of Cosmo and Lean Mac lines. At a recent master test, she had 4 puppies from 3 different sires all pass the test. The weekend before, a litter mate of two of the pupppies won a Derby. All three sires were FC/AFC dogs. On the surface to those of us who are not rocket scientists, it would appear that this female is producing when bred with any male but, to date, all the males were proven. So someone alot smarter than me needs to figure that out.

On the other side, we have a 12 year old CLF that "is out of the back of a pickup in a Kroger parking lot" selection. Basically back yard breeders. Knew nothing about dogs and pedigrees back then and didn't care. 40 master passes later and lots of ducks later, she appears to produce nice puppies. Have two out of her that are both MH and master national qualifiers.
 

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Actually I think what Shelby is looking for isn't so easy to find. Yes there are pedigree databases but compared to the stats you can find on race horses, it's not an easy job to compare produce of dams to get of sire. You would have to know the dogs to look for, or go find dogs that were doing well and look up their pedigrees. However comparing retriever breeding to race horse breeding we still breed the best to the best and hope for the best. And my favorite race truth: Most of them are worth the most before they ever set foot on the track. Same could be said about 99 percent of the retriever pups out there: they're all potential FCs or AFCs when they're for sale at 8 wks.!
 

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Actually I think what Shelby is looking for isn't so easy to find. Yes there are pedigree databases but compared to the stats you can find on race horses, it's not an easy job to compare produce of dams to get of sire. You would have to know the dogs to look for, or go find dogs that were doing well and look up their pedigrees.
The AKC holds the raw numbers for those stats but they don't care about improving their databases-instead they are promoting mixed breeds for $$$. I got those stats back in 1980 for goats and milk production records but then not everyone agrees what is a great sire.

Shelby posted awhile back for her it was:
"Still my choice would be

Top Producing Sires
Historically GRHRCH UH Missys Cajun Dakota. Owner Bill Autrey # of pups 412,titles earned as UH 16,GRHRCH titles&, HRCH titles 45, HR titles 31, SHR titles titles 17 # of titles 116"
Many other people think in terms of FC that produces how many FC and/or AFC
 
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