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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have seen some people breeding dogs that are CNM carriers. Is it not 100% that it will carry on to the puppies? I am new to this and when I was looking at puppies and saw that I didn't give it a second look. Then, browsing I saw that they bred Patton to a CNM carrier and he is clear so I was wondering how that works. Maybe, I shouldn't look at it as a bad thing?
 

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When breeding a CNM clear dog to a carrier, half the litter will be clear and half will be carriers. No affected pups will be produced unless two carriers of CNM are bred.
 

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When a carrier is bred to a clear, some puppies will be clear and some will be carriers, none will be affected.

It is the object of the test to identify carriers so that 2 carriers will not be bred and produce puppies that are affected by this disease.
 

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When breeding a CNM clear dog to a carrier, half the litter will be clear and half will be carriers. No affected pups will be produced unless two carriers of CNM are bred.
Statistically there would be an expected 50/50 mix. In reality it is unlikely that you'd see a perfect 1:1 ratio in a given litter and you could get any mix of carriers to clear.
 

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Jerrold Bell, professor at Tufts University, has written some informative articles on genetics and dog breeding. I remember he suggested that when one of these DNA tests for a recessive defect becomes available, that

1. It can be used to ensure that affected puppies are not produced (by including at least one "clear" parent in every breeding).

2. It can make it possible to use otherwise-high-quality "carriers" and even "affecteds," allowing them to contribute their strengths to a breeding program and the breed as a whole

3. Breeders, in his view, can and, ideally, should select to reduce the incidence of carriers in their stock from generation to generation.

He made it clear that he believes automatic culling of all carriers is likely to be detrimental to a breed. Remember, there are lots of other major and minor genetic defects that can become concentrated any time a significant number of individuals are removed from the breeding pool.

Amy Dahl
 

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afdahl said:
Jerrold Bell, professor at Tufts University, has written some informative articles on genetics and dog breeding. I remember he suggested that when one of these DNA tests for a recessive defect becomes available, that

1. It can be used to ensure that affected puppies are not produced (by including at least one "clear" parent in every breeding).

2. It can make it possible to use otherwise-high-quality "carriers" and even "affecteds," allowing them to contribute their strengths to a breeding program and the breed as a whole

3. Breeders, in his view, can and, ideally, should select to reduce the incidence of carriers in their stock from generation to generation.

He made it clear that he believes automatic culling of all carriers is likely to be detrimental to a breed. Remember, there are lots of other major and minor genetic defects that can become concentrated any time a significant number of individuals are removed from the breeding pool.

Amy Dahl
Nicely put.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
How young can they detect if the dog is a CNM carrier? How whould you know if they are a carrier or they are affected can the test show that?
 

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this seems strange because i have never seen a puppy affected by cnm. i have talked to breeders that have had over 100 litters out of honest abe and that line that we now know are carriers, and have never seen an affected puppy. if someone has pictures of a litter affected please post them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
For some reason my computer will not let me go to the CNM site! I get an wierd message. I was wanting to research it more and see this list of dogs they have cleared. Can someone maybe send me just the list? That'd be great.
 

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duckster--there is not just one list. You have to type the dog's name in and see if it is on the white list.

I have no problem at all breeding a carrier to a clear. However, IMO if this is done then all the puppies should be tested prior to being sold. Again--this is just my opinion but I feel all carriers should be sold with a limited registration and the clear dogs sold with a full registration. With this you are still passing on the genes you are breeding for with the clear puppies. There are plenty of hunters/hunt tests people out there that have no desire to breed--they would make perfect homes for the carriers and still have a chance at an outstanding dog. Taking out all carriers of the gene pool at this time, like stated above, probably isn't a good idea of the breed. But if done properly like i stated you can slowly start decreasing the passing of the CNM gene.

todd
 

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The DNA test can tell the difference between carrier, affected and clear.

Dogs can be tested at any age. The litter I am currently raising was tested at 4 weeks of age as the FC-AFC mother is a carrier ( sire is clear), so we will know the cnm status of each pup in the litter before it leaves.

There is a video of a cnm affected dog on the cnm website.


Teri
 

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Marylin Fender was one of the first to e-mail me and tell me NOT to take "Pete" out of the gene pool. Just said I needed to make sure the female was Clear.

Jerry
 

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i have talked to breeders that have had over 100 litters out of honest abe and that line that we now know are carriers
I think you are confusing Abe with another sire. I highly doubt that Abe was a carrier and that's why he has not produced them. Before you post a name you better be pretty sure of your info.
 

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okvet said:
--this is just my opinion but I feel all carriers should be sold with a limited registration and the clear dogs sold with a full registration.
It has been difficult for me to follow this often expressed line of reasoning, if you believe that the test prevents the production of affected puppies how does the carrier status affect the status and price of the puppies. Personally I do not care and I would not purchase a puppy with "limited registration".

What is there about carrying an autosomal recessive gene that affects the value of a competition retriever :?
 

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ErinsEdge said:
I think you are confusing Abe with another sire. I highly doubt that Abe was a carrier and that's why he has not produced them. Before you post a name you better be pretty sure of your info.
I think it is universally accepted that Abe was NOT a carrier although he was bred to some females who could have produced carrier puppies due to the fact that the females were carriers.
 

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EdA said:
okvet said:
--this is just my opinion but I feel all carriers should be sold with a limited registration and the clear dogs sold with a full registration.
It has been difficult for me to follow this often expressed line of reasoning, if you believe that the test prevents the production of affected puppies how does the carrier status affect the status and price of the puppies. Personally I do not care and I would not purchase a puppy with "limited registration".

What is there about carrying an autosomal recessive gene that affects the value of a competition retriever :?
I agree with this. I don't understand this sentiment:
There are plenty of hunters/hunt tests people out there that have no desire to breed--they would make perfect homes for the carriers and still have a chance at an outstanding dog.
I would hope that a dog's value lies in it's potential talent, not it's breeding potential based on a pedigree.

Why should potentially talented dogs be relegated to hunting or hunt testing regards,
Dave
 

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okvet wrote:
--this is just my opinion but I feel all carriers should be sold with a limited registration and the clear dogs sold with a full registration.
It has been difficult for me to follow this often expressed line of reasoning, if you believe that the test prevents the production of affected puppies how does the carrier status affect the status and price of the puppies. Personally I do not care and I would not purchase a puppy with "limited registration".

What is there about carrying an autosomal recessive gene that affects the value of a competition retriever
I agree with Dr. Ed. What if the test had been available years ago and Super Tanker was not in our Gene Pool? I think we would not be seeing near as many great competition retrievers as we do today.

JMHO,
Marty
 

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What if the test had been available years ago and Super Tanker was not in our Gene Pool? I think we would not be seeing near as many great competition retrievers as we do today.
I agree--there were some super carrier dogs in the past who genes have been passed on to produce some outstanding FT dogs, but now that we do have a test available we could thin out the number of dogs carrying the gene by testing litters when we know one parent is a carrier. I do agree with Dr. Ed I would not purchase a dog with a limited registration but I also would not purchase a dog that was a carrier and I also would not breed my clear female to a carrier. IMO there are just too many good dogs out there that are not carriers. My thoughts are if you breed a clear to a carrier (which I have no problem with) odds are 50% are going to be born with the CNM gene and be carriers---you have the other 1/2 to pass on the desired genes of that particular breeding--so in reality you are not taking the carrier parent's genes out of the lab gene pool.

BTW--I might also mention to the best of my knowledge I have never seen an affected lab puppy and never would you catch me arguing with a colleague (Dr. Ed) who has a million times more experience than me in the lab game.

Honestly though--how many of you Field Trialers would purchase a known carrier pup and invest the amount of time and money it takes to get the dog to become competitive in the FT game?
 

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okvet said:
-how many of you Field Trialers would purchase a known carrier pup and invest the amount of time and money it takes to get the dog to become competitive in the FT game?
if the puppy is from a great breeding most field trial people could care less because most of us are looking for a GREAT COMPETITION DOG, anything that happens after that is gravy 8)
 

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EdA said:
okvet said:
-how many of you Field Trialers would purchase a known carrier pup and invest the amount of time and money it takes to get the dog to become competitive in the FT game?
if the puppy is from a great breeding most field trial people could care less because most of us are looking for a GREAT COMPETITION DOG, anything that happens after that is gravy 8)
Amen!!!! If I found a puppy that I thought was the next Honcho, Maxx, Lottie or Tanker,,,, it could carry "soup to nuts" for all I care.... Matter of fact it could have no nuts....

Just want a great one regards..... 8)

Angie
 
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