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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I am not one to share my problems with folks, but I got to thinking that this information needs to be passed along to prevent someone else from go thru the problems I am going thru right now with my dogs.
In the past six months I have suddenly been plagued with small litters and for the first time since I have been breeding, I have had 3 of my girls not get pregnant even though we did progesterone timing tests and bred on the correct days. Up until six months ago my litter average was about 9 puppies per litter. The past six months the average has dropped to 3 to 4 puppies per litter.
So I tried to think of what, if any, factors have changed that could have caused this to happen. The only thing that I have done differently was about 7 months ago I added a different cleaning solution to the sanitation routine. I pulled one of the bottles out and goggled the ingredients (Didecyl Dimethyl Ammonium Chloride and n-Alkyl Dimenthyl Benzyl Ammonium Chloride) and was shocked with what I found. Turns out that these two ingredients cause infertility issues and birth defects.
I have spent the past three hours reading EVERY label on EVERY bottle of cleaning solution in my kennel and house. Some of the products that contain these harmful chemicals are Mint Quat, OdoBan and a product made by Top Performance called Fresh Scent-256.
Here are the two links that I found that explain the fertility issues and birth defects. If you use these products and have breeding dogs you may want to reconsider your sanitation solutions.

http://scienceblogs.com/grrlscientist/2008/06/fertility_problems_tied_to_cle.php

http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080618/full/453964a.html

Wendy Bonello
Cresthill Kennels
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First-- you sure have a nice looking place there Wendy! Am curious if all the girls listed as bred live on site--- I saw that at least one is expecting a pretty large litter--- any differences that you can explain w/ that one?

I don't breed that much by comparison (just 1-2 litters a year), but I had a one pup litter a little over a year ago (pup died in utero unfortunately and still req'd c-section!), and spent alot of time seeking answers. I think in my case, the bitch was pulled in a solid 2 mos earlier than she should have been, so maybe not a complete cycle --timed all by progesterone too, semen looked, good, etc. But another thing that came up later that was of interest is that flax seed can prevent implantation and my "green" supplement contains a fair amount of flax... so I am leaving the flax seed out now once I have one bred. There were other components that I knew were suspect for producing contractions that I had avoided in the past, and now I'm thinking that I filled a bit of that void w/ the flax thinking it was so safe. Others out here and in other parts of the US have discussed the role of selenium (deficient in some soils and wells) as well but I give all my dogs 1/2 of a "B50" vitamin that contains Se on a regular basis, and a whole one when pregnant since it also has folic acid in it too.

Another thing that is discussed often is herpes virus, normally very harmless to adults except in pregnancy. Apparently depending on when your bitch is exposed (1st, 2nd last trimester), it can either wipe the whole litter out or at least partially. Since I see that you are boarding, maybe some "bugs" are coming in that are new? I don't think I have to worry about cleaning products here as I use some pretty tame stuff all in all, but it is an important observation you've made. Anne
 

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Wendy
Thanks you for that heads up, I just missed with a girl of mine and use Odo ban....
Permission to cross post? using you signature or not?
Bridget
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Anne,
The bitch that is having the large litter is one my dogs that lives with a foster family during the year and only comes "home" to the kennel to have a litter every now and then. She was only here long enough to do progesterone testing, shipped out to be bred, then came back to the kennel for only a few more days before being returned to her foster family until 10 - 14 days prior to whelping. So she was not exposed to the chemicals like the rest of my girls that are expecting the smaller litters. It's unfortuante as right now I have quite a few deposits.... I hate having to tell folks that we don't have enough puppies and therefore they will have to wait for another litter.... ugh

We are very careful with the boarding dogs. Runs are sanitized everyday (water buckets and food bowl too) My personal dogs air in their own airing yard... boarders do not air in that airing yard. So my dogs really do not have contact with boarding dogs. Is the herpes virus airborne?



Bridget,
You are welcome to cross post, with or without my signature. I think it is best that folks know that this is a possible cause for infertility issues.

I can also add that there are a few more products that have one or both of the harmful chemicals in it, Lysol Kitchen and Bathroom, OdoKill and OdoKleen made by Naturve are three more products.

Kind Regards,

Wendy Bonello
Cresthill Kennels
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I know someone who has used OdoBan for over 15 years who has huge litters and occasional miss, which is not abnormal. There doesn't have to be a reason. If a number of dogs are coming up barren or small litters I would be looking at Mycoplasma as a possibility. Even though @65% of all dogs harbor Mycoplasma as normal flora, it can cause decreasingly small litters and then not getting bred at all because Mycoplasma becomes the predominant organsm. This happened to a QAA bitch of mine.
 

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Nancy,

That is certainly a good point. I am heading to the vet office today and will ask about Mycoplasma as a possibility.

Wendy
The other thing is I had a cluster of females escalating in their progesterones so I was almost to the point of trying at or before ovulation. I'm talking 3.2 to 46 and 32 in 3 days. Sometimes nature has its own agenda.
 

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Anne,
The bitch that is having the large litter is one my dogs that lives with a foster family during the year and only comes "home" to the kennel to have a litter every now and then. She was only here long enough to do progesterone testing, shipped out to be bred, then came back to the kennel for only a few more days before being returned to her foster family until 10 - 14 days prior to whelping. So she was not exposed to the chemicals like the rest of my girls that are expecting the smaller litters. It's unfortuante as right now I have quite a few deposits.... I hate having to tell folks that we don't have enough puppies and therefore they will have to wait for another litter.... ugh

We are very careful with the boarding dogs. Runs are sanitized everyday (water buckets and food bowl too) My personal dogs air in their own airing yard... boarders do not air in that airing yard. So my dogs really do not have contact with boarding dogs. Is the herpes virus airborne?
How interesting. I think herpes virus is in the nasal secretions (like kennel cough) so perhaps is airborne too. :confused: I'll ask... I've always just put it aside that there isnt much more I can do but be careful once I breed, however, I am running agility right now w/ Mata and expecting w/ her half sister in 2.5 wks, so feel like I'm pushing things a bit this time. And I agree, it's the pits to have to tell folks "sorry". Anne
 

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Before everyone jumps to conclusions, you have to see at what levels did the tox studies on the material in question caused the problems. If you drink too much water it can be toxic too. So you can look online and find out what dose given to the test animals caused the problems. It might be for an example, 2000mg of material per kg of body weight was dosed to cause the effects. That's alot of the suspected material. Just do your homework before jumping to conclusions.

Scott
 

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Or, not dosage, but anything else about the study that suggests reservations about the conclusions. I did not pay for the Nature article, but the other describes it. Essentially a mouse researcher moved from one university to another and had a falloff in reproductive success in the mice. She suspected the sanitizing solution and set up an experiment to test the idea. Reproductive success (if the secondary article is to be believed) did not improve in the control group, an effect put down to lasting contamination with the quaternary ammonium sanitizing solution.

Note, however, that the mice were moved to a totally new environment.

I would make note of the findings, but continue to be alert for other possible causes.

Amy Dahl
 

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As a former Herpes (HSV-1) researcher, Herpes is a pretty fragile virus and becomes non-infectious pretty quickly upon drying. I use a dilute solution of bleach on my runs. Good ole bleach pretty much takes care of everything. Mycoplasma can be hard to eliminate if you have it at your facility.

Sandy A.
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
Scott,

Very true... we are looking at all possibilities. I followed the dilution instructions on the label. It just seems way too coincidental for me. My vet will be contacting the reproduction specialist at Virginia Tech this coming week. We are hoping that they might be interested in doing a study on it.

Wendy Bonello
Cresthill Kennels
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Anne,
The bitch that is having the large litter is one my dogs that lives with a foster family during the year and only comes "home" to the kennel to have a litter every now and then. She was only here long enough to do progesterone testing, shipped out to be bred, then came back to the kennel for only a few more days before being returned to her foster family until 10 - 14 days prior to whelping. So she was not exposed to the chemicals like the rest of my girls that are expecting the smaller litters. It's unfortuante as right now I have quite a few deposits.... I hate having to tell folks that we don't have enough puppies and therefore they will have to wait for another litter.... ugh

We are very careful with the boarding dogs. Runs are sanitized everyday (water buckets and food bowl too) My personal dogs air in their own airing yard... boarders do not air in that airing yard. So my dogs really do not have contact with boarding dogs. Is the herpes virus airborne?



Bridget,
You are welcome to cross post, with or without my signature. I think it is best that folks know that this is a possible cause for infertility issues.

I can also add that there are a few more products that have one or both of the harmful chemicals in it, Lysol Kitchen and Bathroom, OdoKill and OdoKleen made by Naturve are three more products.

Kind Regards,

Wendy Bonello
Cresthill Kennels
____
Ford performance vehicles history
I started researching the possible reasons for a failed surgical AI and a
I am not one to share my problems with folks, but I got to thinking that this information needs to be passed along to prevent someone else from go thru the problems I am going thru right now with my dogs.
In the past six months I have suddenly been plagued with small litters and for the first time since I have been breeding, I have had 3 of my girls not get pregnant even though we did progesterone timing tests and bred on the correct days. Up until six months ago my litter average was about 9 puppies per litter. The past six months the average has dropped to 3 to 4 puppies per litter.
So I tried to think of what, if any, factors have changed that could have caused this to happen. The only thing that I have done differently was about 7 months ago I added a different cleaning solution to the sanitation routine. I pulled one of the bottles out and goggled the ingredients (Didecyl Dimethyl Ammonium Chloride and n-Alkyl Dimenthyl Benzyl Ammonium Chloride) and was shocked with what I found. Turns out that these two ingredients cause infertility issues and birth defects.
I have spent the past three hours reading EVERY label on EVERY bottle of cleaning solution in my kennel and house. Some of the products that contain these harmful chemicals are Mint Quat, OdoBan and a product made by Top Performance called Fresh Scent-256.
Here are the two links that I found that explain the fertility issues and birth defects. If you use these products and have breeding dogs you may want to reconsider your sanitation solutions.

http://scienceblogs.com/grrlscientist/2008/06/fertility_problems_tied_to_cle.php

Lab disinfectant harms mouse fertility : Nature News

Wendy Bonello
Cresthill Kennels
____
X HAMSTER
I have been searching for a possible reason for an unsuccessful surgical AI and an aborted litter ( at 5 wks) last fall. Both bitches have successfully welped 1 litter each (6 & 8 pups) the prior year.
I started using Fresh Scent 256 kennel cleaner after a bout with cocidia after one of those litters.
I bred(live cover) the AI girl on Jan 13th 2021 and should be seeing signs of pregnancy but, am not seeing it.
Also 2nd girl is now in season now and I plan to breed her as well.
Is there anything I can do to decontamination my kennel/ yard?
Or any treatment for my girls?
I am just sick about this!
 

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I started researching the possible reasons for a failed surgical AI and a

I have been searching for a possible reason for an unsuccessful surgical AI and an aborted litter ( at 5 wks) last fall. Both bitches have successfully welped 1 litter each (6 & 8 pups) the prior year.
I started using Fresh Scent 256 kennel cleaner after a bout with cocidia after one of those litters.
I bred(live cover) the AI girl on Jan 13th 2021 and should be seeing signs of pregnancy but, am not seeing it.
Also 2nd girl is now in season now and I plan to breed her as well.
Is there anything I can do to decontamination my kennel/ yard?
Or any treatment for my girls?
I am just sick about this!
Also purchased male pup for future stud. Could this make him infertile? Have only used once since he has been here.
 
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