[huntingretriever1]

Lately on this forum, I have noticed a lot of debate over breeding a carrier of CNM. Many heated disscusions have arrisen over this topic. I personaly just want to know how many people would breed a dog that is a carrier. There are many dogs out there that have absolutely tremendous pedigrees, but they are carriers. I just want to know how many people would breed one, knowing that as long as you breed to clear dogs then the disease won't surface.

I would appreciate responces, but would ask for no personal attacks as have been seen before on other posts about CNM.

Thank you everybody, and Merry Christmas.

Samuel Poppell,

 

[Martha Lancaster]

Breed a carrier ?

Yes, I would breed a carrier, but only to a clear.

There are many other things to consider before breeding, which have all been discussed on this forum many times. CNM is only one piece of the puzzle.

Would you breed a clear to a clear that wouldn't hunt? I wouldn't.

 

[huntingretriever1]

Thank you for your reply. Great responce with an argument to back it up.

Samuel Poppell,

 

[KRL]

I would breed a carrier. I would use the same criteria I use for all my breeding stock. If they are worthy of being bred performance wise and healthwise I will breed them. If they are not then I would not. Since CNM is 100% preventable I do not consider it a health issue. Prior to the test I wouldn't have ever considered breeding to a carrier.

I think the negatives created by saying absolutely do not breed a carrier far out weigh the positives.

I think it is careless to elminate carriers completely as breeding options.

 

[Angie B]

I would breed a carrier. I would use the same criteria I use for all my breeding stock. If they are worthy of being bred performance wise and healthwise I will breed them. If they are not then I would not. Since CNM is 100% preventable I do not consider it a health issue. Prior to the test I wouldn't have ever considered breeding to a carrier.

I think the negatives created by saying absolutely do not breed a carrier far out weigh the positives.

I think it is careless to elminate carriers completely as breeding options.

I'm with you. Common Sense all the way!

Angie

 

[B. A.]

Even though it is a can of worms I would breed a carrier if the dog was extremely talented. Having done so, I would test the entire litter and sell any carrier pups on a limited registration at a lower price than the clear pups.

I must confess that I would prefer not to face that question and will avoid buying a carrier puppy/dog in the future.

 

[goldeneye]

I voted absolutely not.

 

[anderuel]

It may seem a no brainer & very PC that you would not breed anything but clear to clear. However, consider that every action you take has an effect on the gene pool. To only breed clear x clear (thus narrowing the gene pool) may give you some other affliction to varying degrees. What if the gene for this disease *supresses* another problem?? You may be trading the evil you know for one you don't. Why eliminate the carriers who will never develop the disease and never need produce it if they are bred to clears? You are going to breed to clears anyway, from the clear x clear perspective, so it's not as if you are going to be further limited in your search and it *widens* the choices if you have a clear bitch (breed to clears or carriers).

If there is a tool to prevent production of any more affecteds from the breed, why take the drastic measure of eliminating carriers in one generation? It seems to be the more prudent approach would be to NOT eliminate carriers and instead keep what are most likely valuable genes (and I could be wrong, looking in from the outside, but it seems that there isn't *huge* diversity of pedigrees in the FC Labrador population) while never having to produce one more affected dog! Check out this link, which contains an article that illustrates what I am trying to say in a far clearer manner:

http://www.rugerdachshunds.com/babybathwater.html

You are lucky to have a DNA test...use it for that which it is intended!

Dawn-Renee

 

[simbamonkeymagic]

Bob A. hits the nail on the head. In order to breed to a carrier, it better be a great dog (QAA or better). To breed to a carrier that is my "meat" dog is not responsible. I would, as Bob says, have the entire litter checked and sell carriers on a limited registration.

Also, if I am going to breed to a carrier, I am going to make sure that mine is clear. A carrier to a carrier is plain reckless. That's why people need to insist that any bitch/stud they breed to has been checked. There are enough FC-AFCs in our world, that for every carrier there are probably 5 dogs that are clear.

 

[Franco]

With all the nice studs to choose from, why breed to a carrier?

Bigger questions is; Would you breed your clear stud to a bitch that is a carrier or just take the stud fee and run?

 

[Angie B]

With all the nice studs to choose from, why breed to a carrier?

Bigger questions is; Would you breed your clear stud to a bitch that is a carrier or just take the stud fee and run?

Because there's no such thing as a perfect dog. All dogs are flawed. We now have a test that we can use to breed around that flaw. Were lucky to have it. Now we can make educated decisions about using a stud that has everything we want in a dog for our female.

Remember other great studs were carriers and were used anyway and they produced some phenomenal dogs. They were identifed as carriers by throwing the disease. It didn't hurt their dance card really. The stud owners and bitch owners had to be very educated about their pedigrees before considering doing a breeding.

Yes I would use a carrier.

Angie

 

[HiRollerlabs]

Weren't yellow and chocolate labs culled from litters "in the old days?" Culling of CNM carriers will only result in a less desirable gene pool.

Controlling CNM through responsible breeding is the objective.

 

[Franco]

The problem with trying to control CNM through selective breeding is that generations down, some will end up with affected pups. If we have the tools for elimination, lets do it!

Yes, Chocs and Yellows were culled. However, with the vast numbers of nice Black dogs to choose from, there is no danger is limiting the gene pool.

Now that the trial season is over, my dog is being tested this week. His trainer has been too busy training to stop and take the time to get it done. If he is a carrier (which I doubt) he'll get a vasectomy.

 

[anderuel]

The problem with trying to control CNM through selective breeding is that generations down, some will end up with affected pups.

Why? If carriers are only bred to clears, you will NOT EVER produce affected pups. Statements like this are very irresponsible, not to mention downright incorrect.

Dawn-Renee

 

[Franco]

Why? If carriers are only bred to clears, you will NOT EVER produce affected pups. Statements like this are very irresponsible, not to mention downright incorrect.

Dawn-Renee

Because down the line, some folks won't be as careful and some will unknowingly breed carriers and produce affected pups! Only in a dream world would we assume everyone with Field Labs will be that responsible.

I for one am not looking to protect or breed a carrier. Too many sound and healthy dogs to choose from!

 

[ErinsEdge]

I think the bigger problem than a few affecteds being produced down the line, like a few dwarfs being produced occasionally, is the vast numbers of big stud owners that choose not to test because they are afraid of the results. The burden of proof then is on the breeder who must then not only test their females (a given), but also test all the pups, or put all the pups on limited, if they want to be responsible and use an unknown CMN stud. So much money spent for those that choose to bury their heads in the sand but then that also becomes the choice of the breeder to breed to an unknown status stud and add to the cost of producing the litter in an already soft market. I further think that in the future after testing is well accepted, studs with an unknown CNM status may lose more breedings than if they had tested as known carriers. It becomes a respect issue and extention of what more is being hidden. JMHO. I highly respect all those stud owners that are strong enough to choose to test

 

[FOM]

I think the bigger problem than a few affecteds being produced down the line, like a few dwarfs being produced occasionally, is the vast numbers of big stud owners that choose not to test because they are afraid of the results. The burden of proof then is on the breeder who must then not only test their females, but also test all the pups, or put all the pups on limited, if they want to be responsible and use an unknown stud. So much money spent for those that choose to bury their heads in the sand.

So maybe the poll should be: "Would you breed if both sire and dam were not tested for CNM?"

Lainee, Flash and Bullet

 

[anderuel]

Because down the line, some folks won't be as careful and some will unknowingly breed carriers and produce affected pups! Only in a dream world would we assume everyone with Field Labs will be that responsible.

And, after making that statement, you think everyone is going to actually test and only breed clear to clear? LOL! The fact of the matter is, you can only control what you do and worry about what you produce. You cannot legislate ethics for people "down the line". The whole point is to not produce affecteds, in my mind. If you test your pups from clear to carrier breedings and only breed carriers to clear, you will likely elminate carriers in three generations or so. Mr Booty, did you actually *read* this article? http://www.rugerdachshunds.com/babybathwater.html

Really, if you read this and still think you are going to snip your dog if he is a carrier and only breed clear to clear, then you won't hear any more flak from me.


Dawn-Renee

 

[Guest]

With all the nice studs to choose from, why breed to a carrier?


I got to agree with Mr. Booty on this one. I personally just don?t see that great stud that would make it worth the risk of breeding more carriers. With that said I see no problem with a special breeding carrier to clear if the breeder test all the pups and then use a limited registration on the Carrier pups.

Dave

What do you mean the Dukes Of Hazards wasn?t real !?!?!?!?

 

[Anthony Heath]

Looks like the results are split pretty evenly among all the choices. Everyone will essentially be able to have their way.

Those that won't breed carriers can do just that.

Others who will breed carriers can do that. This will result in no babies laying around in the back yard with the bubbles.

The important thing is that everyone tests so that informed decisions can be made by all. I'm sure that carrier studs will get a reduced number of breedings (compared to before the test), but I think that those not tested will be impacted more, especially as we move forward.