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A cold burn is an e-collar correction that is not preceded by a command.

Examples of cold burns might be burning a dog to train the dog to avoid rattlesnakes, porcupines, or counter-surfing.
The dog develops "superstitious behavior" and avoids the rattlesnake, porcupine, counter top, etc.

Most modern retrieve training programs (Lardy, Farmer,Graham, Stawski, etc.) do not advocate cold burns.

Here is an example of a cold burn in de-cheating:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9dRluQJswE


This bothers me...a cold burn approach is not fair to the dog..instead of informing the dog the instant he made the mistake,
the ecollar correction is delayed for many seconds.
The cold burn approach may result in superstitious behavior such as refusing to
get on a point in a water blind, avoidance of a down the shore mark, no-goes, etc.

Instead of this "cold burn" approach most modern retrieve training programs
use handling to teach the retriever the instant he made the mistake and indirect pressure (sit-nick-sit).
Handling to teach swim-by, handling to teach the desired behavior, correction the instant of disobedience.
This approach is fairer to the dog and less risky in terms of potential problems of creating "superstitious behaviors" with the cold burn approach.
 

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I believe that there is a place for a cold burn, albeit rare, in training. There is a difference between using the collar in teaching a young dog, and correcting an older, experienced dog.
 

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A cold burn is an e-collar correction that is not preceded by a command.Examples of cold burns might be burning a dog to train the dog to avoid rattlesnakes, porcupines, or counter-surfing.The dog develops "superstitious behavior" and avoids the rattlesnake, porcupine, counter top, etc.Most modern retrieve training programs (Lardy, Farmer,Graham, Stawski, etc.) do not advocate cold burns. Here is an example of a cold burn in de-cheating:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9dRluQJswEThis bothers me...a cold burn approach is not fair to the dog..instead of informing the dog the instant he made the mistake,the ecollar correction is delayed for many seconds.The cold burn approach may result in superstitious behavior such as refusing to get on a point in a water blind, avoidance of a down the shore mark, no-goes, etc.Instead of this "cold burn" approach most modern retrieve training programsuse handling to teach the retriever the instant he made the mistake and indirect pressure (sit-nick-sit).Handling to teach swim-by, handling to teach the desired behavior, correction the instant of disobedience.This approach is fairer to the dog and less risky in terms of potential problems of creating "superstitious behaviors" with the cold burn approach.
The answer is, almost never do it. But, it depends on the dog. Yes, can certainly cause unwanted behavior..Once saw Mike Lardy direct burn Super Tanker for running round a small piece of water. He knew Tank, and knew that Tank understood the correction.
 

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The answer is, almost never do it. But, it depends on the dog. Yes, can certainly cause unwanted behavior..Once saw Mike Lardy direct burn Super Tanker for running round a small piece of water. He knew Tank, and knew that Tank understood the correction.
I don't know for certain, but guess

1. Dog taught correct behavior
2. Dog knew correct behavior
3. Dog repeat offender
4. Dog misconduct blatant

So cold burn merited

Ted
 

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This bothers me...a cold burn approach is not fair to the dog..instead of informing the dog the instant he made the mistake,
the ecollar correction is delayed for many seconds.
Not sure the video illustrates a cold burn as much as indirect pressure vs. direct. One might argue that the dog is informed the instant he makes a wrong move as the collar informs him he has done something wrong, and that wrong is associated with "this action-area, water vs. land". Where as if you go "sit nick sit" your asking the dog to understand that he is in fact being correct for ex; cheating water, rather than not sitting? A young dog doesn't usually have the understanding-experience yet to differentiate, exactly what he is doing wrong . Direct pressure taught in FF, pile fetch, water cheating, etc and is often initially used to teach young dogs (yes this, no that) then you transition to indirect pressure, aka. correction after the infraction. If you've ever decheated this way, it pretty easy for a dog to understand water yes land No. Water turns off collar, land turns it on. Just as Fetch turns off the pressure, not fetch keeps it on. Much the same is used in collar here training (here yes-turns off pressure, not here no-keeps it on). The dial on the collar is often used in both, very minimal stimulation that goes up and down as the dog either continues the infraction or corrects.
 

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This video in my humble opinion demonstrates that you don’t have to no much about dog training to hang out a shingle claiming you are a professional dog trainer
 

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Come on Jerry, Jeff has his own Sporting Dog Adventure TV show, his own "exclusive" lodge in the famed central WI area as well as his overly self-promoted breeding program. In addition, he calls himself a dog trainer yet sends his dogs off to pros to train.
As kids nowadays say, "Exposed."
 

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I used a cold burn last Friday on Rudy. Running a blind. Not taking a cast. First attrition (stopped called back to original sit position before cast refusal). Didn't take cast again. Sat, called back and nick on sit. Recast. Still didn't take cast. Rinse and repeat, still didn't take cast and he got a cold burn. Then he took the cast next time. He knew what I wanted but just being contrary.
That is probably his first cold burn in several months. So, I think there is a place for cold burns but I use them infrequently.
 

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What advantage is there to burning the dog on the way to or from a retrieve as they are cheating?

I've seen a trainer attempt to de-cheat their dog by burning them all the way to and from the bird as they ran the bank.

I don't think the dog learned anything.

How is the dog supposed to know why it was being burned?

I'd be more inclined to think the dog might think it's being forced to the bird or being corrected for a slow "here"

Why not stop the dog on the whistle, nick and cast? Then repeat..
 

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A cold burn is an e-collar correction that is not preceded by a command.

Examples of cold burns might be burning a dog to train the dog to avoid rattlesnakes, porcupines, or counter-surfing.
The dog develops "superstitious behavior" and avoids the rattlesnake, porcupine, counter top, etc.

Most modern retrieve training programs (Lardy, Farmer,Graham, Stawski, etc.) do not advocate cold burns.

Here is an example of a cold burn in de-cheating:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9dRluQJswE


This bothers me...a cold burn approach is not fair to the dog..instead of informing the dog the instant he made the mistake,
the ecollar correction is delayed for many seconds.
The cold burn approach may result in superstitious behavior such as refusing to
get on a point in a water blind, avoidance of a down the shore mark, no-goes, etc.

Instead of this "cold burn" approach most modern retrieve training programs
use handling to teach the retriever the instant he made the mistake and indirect pressure (sit-nick-sit).
Handling to teach swim-by, handling to teach the desired behavior, correction the instant of disobedience.
This approach is fairer to the dog and less risky in terms of potential problems of creating "superstitious behaviors" with the cold burn approach.
Turn the pages of training back to 1984 with the Dobbs method Applying Electronic Dog-Training ....Decheating with pressure HOT SPOT training ..Put the burden on the dog to figure out what is the correct behavior ...punishment training ...avoidance training ....Old school way of doing things...Trainer doesn't teach the correct behavior just punish for incorrect ..even if low level ...Steve S
 

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Why not stop the dog on the whistle, nick and cast? Then repeat..
Many dogs are shore-broke prior to being taught to handle or whistle sit. Many started dogs are shore-broken and will never learn to handle. If for example running JH. Most dogs cannot handle yet, but it's not really good to be letting them bank run either. Not saying you don't show them the proper way prior to applying correction; but once they know they should return in the water or go out through the water, pressure can be used.
 

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Why not stop the dog on the whistle, nick and cast? Then repeat..
Many dogs are shore-broke prior to being taught to handle or whistle sit. Many started dogs are shore-broken and will never learn to handle. If for example running JH. Most dogs cannot handle yet, but it's not really good to be letting them bank run either. Not saying you don't show them the proper way prior to applying correction; but once they know they should return in the water or go out through the water, pressure can be used.
I personally wouldn't throw cheaty marks before my dog could handle.

I probably won't ever run another started test and the ones I did run didn't involve cheaty marks.

I don't think allowing a dog to cheat on a few weekends is going to be detrimental in the long run if you did want to run junior or started.
 

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I also agree there is a place for cold burns in training. It is most useful in avoidance training. I use it for things like teaching a dog not to jump on people, to stop eating deer or cow poop, as mentioned before, snake, skunk or porquipine avoidance, digging, chasing cars, etc. Bark collars work entirely on the cold burn principle unless you have one of the type where the burn is preceded by buzzing or something like that. In most field situations it is entirely inappropriate unless you want to teach your dog to pop, flair, no go, etc.
 

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Turn the pages of training back to 1984 with the Dobbs method Applying Electronic Dog-Training ....Decheating with pressure HOT SPOT training ..Put the burden on the dog to figure out what is the correct behavior ...punishment training ...avoidance training ....Old school way of doing things...Trainer doesn't teach the correct behavior just punish for incorrect ..even if low level ...Steve S
How to make a confused pig 101
Old school for a reason
 

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For Field Trial purposes (as opposed to snake/skunk avoidance purposes), a distinction must be made between

a) "teaching;"
b) "correcting" a dog that has already been taught, knows the proper behavior, and demonstrates a purposeful willingness to not engage the proper behavior

No one advocates (a).
I think the experienced trainer engages (b) when needed.
 

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Not sure the video illustrates a cold burn as much as indirect pressure vs. direct. One might argue that the dog is informed the instant he makes a wrong move as the collar informs him he has done something wrong, and that wrong is associated with "this action-area, water vs. land". Where as if you go "sit nick sit" your asking the dog to understand that he is in fact being correct for ex; cheating water, rather than not sitting? A young dog doesn't usually have the understanding-experience yet to differentiate, exactly what he is doing wrong . Direct pressure taught in FF, pile fetch, water cheating, etc and is often initially used to teach young dogs (yes this, no that) then you transition to indirect pressure, aka. correction after the infraction. If you've ever decheated this way, it pretty easy for a dog to understand water yes land No. Water turns off collar, land turns it on. Just as Fetch turns off the pressure, not fetch keeps it on. Much the same is used in collar here training (here yes-turns off pressure, not here no-keeps it on). The dial on the collar is often used in both, very minimal stimulation that goes up and down as the dog either continues the infraction or corrects.
Old school training = land hot, water not. Dogs and training are way more sophisticated and benefit the dog these days, and thankful for that, as one who's first trainer was old school and I fought ghosts in my early dogs for years. There is a use for cold burn in particular situations by those who understand and know what they are doing, but, decheating young dogs, in particular, well, just say no.
 

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People often conflate their emotions with the use of the collar as a communication device.

If you study Pavlov you'll learn about the flood that almost killed all the dogs in the lab. The effect of that traumatic emotional experience was that a lot of what they'd learned was erased. Pavlov spent his later years giving dogs nervous breakdowns to see how they reacted to trauma. Avoiding traumatic events, regardless of how they occur is almost always a good idea. I say almost because a rattelsnake might be a place where you want a REALLY bad reaction from the dog. Just be careful they don't start avoiding cactus, I guess.

In training - big emotional events tend to create the exact kind of problems most people associate with a cold burn. Some associate them with collar use in general.

A dog burnt on full tilt for touching the kitchen counter may decide it's not going into the kitchen again or be very nervous around the odor of the food that was present. A lot of things could imprint in that moment when the trauma occurs. Not what we are looking for.

A dog given a 3-5 second "burn" at a level just high enough to help them understand the difference between the counter and the floor will rarely, if ever, develop suspicious behavior or other emotional fall out. Add a reward to that in the form of food on the floor, first for getting down and then for deciding not to jump up, and you have a very clear, low stress event for the dog that they can clearly understand. It takes a few more reps but produces a much more predictable results. It's clearly worth going the long way around IMO. I've done this hundreds of times with dogs of varying temperaments. Done carefully, it works very well.

There was no need to teach the process to the dog prior to using the collar in the above example. There is a need to be judicious with the collar, give them some time to sort out the situation mentally and be clear about the consequences of their decisions. The word "burn" is an emotional obstacle for people in this discussion, as is "correction". There's a big difference between setting a collar so high you would call it a "burn" and trying to make the dog instantly stop a behavior with a "correction", as opposed to what you do if you just want to say "hey buddy, that's a bad choice".

The vernacular of Carr based retriever training is sometimes problematic in that it drives perceptions of a process that lead people to inefficient action. Force fetch, burn, correction... not only do these terms fire up the positive training anti's - they plant an idea in the retriever person's mind that might lead them to be more assertive than necessary, and in some case create problems for their dog and themselves by being overzealous with pressure.

You could do de-cheating in the same fashion I explained about the counter top but - you would have to be very careful for that day that they throw the bird the opposite direction and the dog thinks the land before the gunner is nowhere to be.

The guy in the video is really setting some people up for failure by not using a more step wise approach and taking more time to explain to both the dog and the viewer what he's trying to communicate. I can see a lot of people trying that routine as it was presented and ending up with problems.
 

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The guy in the video is really setting some people up for failure by not using a more step wise approach and taking more time to explain to both the dog and the viewer what he's trying to communicate. I can see a lot of people trying that routine as it was presented and ending up with problems.
I have watched the tv show a couple of times. It sucks from beginning to end. The canine part was especially bad. Too bad the viewing audience is so easily duped just because it's on the sporting channel.

Bryan Parks

I don't think allowing a dog to cheat on a few weekends is going to be detrimental in the long run if you did want to run junior or started.

Obviously you have never had to "fix" one that ran the lower level HT's chasing a ribbon or you would not have made that comment.

MP
 
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