[Bill Billups]

What makes a break "controlled" vs. just a break?

Looking in the FT rules I could not find a clear definition.

 

[JBurton]

I believe a controlled break is if you are able to call your dog back to heal. A break is if he just breaks and you are not able to get himback.



Jeff

 

[Renee P.]

I believe a controlled break is if you are able to call your dog back to heal. A break is if he just breaks and you are not able to get himback.



Jeff

But you can't speak to your dog, once you've called for the birds, until released by the judges. So this doesn't sound right to me.

Someone told me that a controlled break is when a dog starts to go, but then stops itself. But if this is correct, is a controlled break different than creeping?

 

[2tall]

Renee, You are right that normally you can not speak until released by the judges. But by saying, no, here or tooting the whistle, you are acknowledging that the dog has indeed broken. It is considered "controlled" if the dog responds to your no, here or toot by returning to heel and staying there until released by judge. I struggled with this concept early on, but soon gained sufficient experience to understand it!

My husband got the same seminar from his chessie back in October.

 

[justin300mag]

But you can't speak to your dog, once you've called for the birds, until released by the judges. So this doesn't sound right to me.

Someone told me that a controlled break is when a dog starts to go, but then stops itself. But if this is correct, is a controlled break different than creeping?

No, if the dogs stops itself without being told it is just a creep. if the dog stops once it is told it is a controlled break. I have seen guys tossed from a master for saying sit once after they have called for the birds because it is now considered a controlled break. Masters = no controlled breaks. However that being said most judges have a barrier that if the dogs cross it they are considered to have broke whether they went or not and whether you had to stop them or not. usually it is is about 15 or 20 feet in front of you.

 

[Eric Johnson]

In a MH that I judged this past w/e we had two examples.

In the land-water series, one issue was which bird of the two outside birds of a triple the dogs should try to get first. One fellow decided to try the right-hand bird but his dog was lining up for the left-hand bird while the birds were going down. At that point he told his dog in a fairly firm and loud voice, "No bird!"

Same series. Another handler had a dog that was creepy to the point I swore the dog was going to break. With the first bird, the dog jumped out about 4 feet in front of the handler. The dog maintained this distance but moved around to get a better angle on each successive bird. When all three were down, the dog returned to an approximation of the correct heel position.

In the first case, we ruled it as a controlled break and the dog was excused after the series. We could have actually stopped the series and set the dog to the truck but in fact let him continue while we chatted about what happened. The handler said, "But he wasn't breaking." We said, "But we didn't know what the dog was doing that required you to correct it and the rules say the handler may not speak to the dog in that situation."

In the second case, the dog was docked points for "Trainability" but was carried to the next series.

Eric

 

[Jennifer Henion]

Great post, Eric! Thanks for that description - extremely helpful.

Jennifer

 

[Labs R Us]

I'll second that....great post Eric! I'd like to hear other judges thoughts on this subject (and vocalization which I feel are related due to excitement) in both SH and MH tests. Whining vs yelping vs barking.

Obviously, these are issues I am dealing with and are a constant work in progress. Just would like to know what judges allow /won't allow as we may never be completely quiet at the line. Damn.

 

[rfinger]

Can you have a controled break on an honor?

I have heard it both ways. Some say, that your only duty as the
honoring dog is to sit there and if your dog breaks (controled or not)
it and you have failed to do what is expected.

 

[Karen Klotthor]

I'll second that....great post Eric! I'd like to hear other judges thoughts on this subject (and vocalization which I feel are related due to excitement) in both SH and MH tests. Whining vs yelping vs barking.

Obviously, these are issues I am dealing with and are a constant work in progress. Just would like to know what judges allow /won't allow as we may never be completely quiet at the line. Damn.

That would depend on when the dog makes the noice. Is it before birds are thrown on doing. If before, than the hunt is distrubed ,if doing while birds are already being shot not so much.. It really depends on how much noice. Whining is not near as bad as yelping and barking. I have one that will whin on honor but so far not load enough to hurt the working dog. She has had a duo when the working dog started first on a HRC finished test. Working dog started it , so I was not penalized, Judges had a good laugh out of it.

 

[Eric Johnson]

Can you have a controled break on an honor?

I have heard it both ways. Some say, that your only duty as the
honoring dog is to sit there and if your dog breaks (controled or not)
it and you have failed to do what is expected.

In a word yes _but_....imagine what command you would need (command, volume, and inflection) to stop the honor dog moving that would not disturb the working dog.

First, remember that even a controlled break is grounds for elimination in Master.

In Senior, if during the honor you whisper a command to stay, that's not a controlled break as you are allowed to whisper to the dog while on the honor. Thus, what you are asking is what is the middle ground between the legal whispering that is allowed and the vocalization that would affect the working dog? Frankly, I don't know. So, while theoretically a controlled break of the honor is allowed in Senior, practically it would be very rare.

What I tell Senior handlers is that during the marks/honor test, one judge watches the working dog and one watches the honor, If they are the honor dog and they speak loud enough to get the attention of the judge watching the working dog, they are "whispering" too loud and may be excused.

Eric

 

[Jennifer Henion]

More good stuff, thanks Eric.

Will be entering my first Senior test this summer and didn't know I could whisper during the honor. A great tool to have.

Jennifer

 

[Bill Billups]

My question is for the situation in FTs where dog breaks before being released by judge and handler stops him with voice. I realize there is no controlled break in AA stakes.

How do you use voice and still be within rules?

I assume a booming NO HERE is not allowed.

HERE OK? SIT OK?

I have read p. 31-32 and still don't get a good feel between a break and a "controlled" break.

Bill

 

[Gawthorpe]

Bill:
I write with a very recent experience in the Derby.
The flyer went off.
Baker took off.

I did not receive a number because my dog was not present.

I yelled hear. He came back from 30 yards and immediately came to the mat.

Judge released me because he was now under control.

I sent Baker to the flyer.

Because I did not use any discipline this was allowed.
If I would have yelled No Hear we would have been disqualified.

Hope that helps. Oh yeah we got 2nd in the Derby.

 

[John Robinson]

My question is for the situation in FTs where dog breaks before being released by judge and handler stops him with voice. I realize there is no controlled break in AA stakes.

How do you use voice and still be within rules?

I assume a booming NO HERE is not allowed.

HERE OK? SIT OK?

I have read p. 31-32 and still don't get a good feel between a break and a "controlled" break.

Bill

The normal effective means of stopping your dog on a break is "SIT". This is reinforced in training by Sit-nick if a dog lifts its but, or "SIT"! with a big correction if the dog breaks in training. In stakes that allow a controlled break a quick "sit" and re-heel will get you back. In AA stakes and Master you still have to stop your dog, but even with a quiet spoken command, it will be considered a controlled break and you are out.

So the difference between a controlled break and a break is the element of control, stopping your dog and re-heeling him demonstrates that control, letting your dog fly out to pick up the bird is not controlled.

John

 

[Byron Musick]

A great tool to have.

Jennifer

Just remember to do it in training!

My poor girl, in training for an honor, I always said "Sit", left it at that and would only say anything if I needed to correct..

Then I get in my first SH test, and learn I can quietly talk to my dog..

Sounds great, everytime I said "Sit", "No-Bird", "Sit"..

She was going banana's, and I am sure she thought;

Damn it, you didn't say my name!! Your supposed to say Molly!! Shut the heck up and call my name already!! Why are you talking to me? Shut up you idiot and same my FRIGGIN NAME!!

As she wanted to jump out of her skin.... I thought later, maybe I should have kept my mouth shut and save the commands (soft) if she started to move.. Like I did in training!

So do it like you train it, don't add to the thrill of the hunt with something new!

 

[John Robinson]

Bill:
I write with a very recent experience in the Derby.
The flyer went off.
Baker took off.

I did not receive a number because my dog was not present.

I yelled hear. He came back from 30 yards and immediately came to the mat.

Judge released me because he was now under control.

I sent Baker to the flyer.

Because I did not use any discipline this was allowed.
If I would have yelled No Hear we would have been disqualified.

Hope that helps. Oh yeah we got 2nd in the Derby.

Why? Whats the difference?

 

[Larry Thompson1]

The first Master I ran w/my HRC dog was a double. First bird went down 180 turn to the right second bird I said here. Judges released the dog and then told me they were going to judge that as a controled break. I apologized and felt lucky. He then lined the blind. Good dog bad handler.

 

[justin300mag]

The first Master I ran w/my HRC dog was a double. First bird went down 180 turn to the right second bird I said here. Judges released the dog and then told me they were going to judge that as a controled break. I apologized and felt lucky. He then lined the blind. Good dog bad handler.

Curious as to how that is lucky? controlled breaks are grounds for elimination in masters. Did they let you keep playing?

 

[Hunt'EmUp]

Had a reminder of no controlled break in MH the other day. Walk-up triple the bird surprised me and I did not get a good sit out. She sat there quite nicely until that live hen pheasant went up, crept 4 ft, then sat nicely through the shots, and until it hit the ground. Landing wounded behind a bush were she couldn't see it, Black-hearted girl just couldn't wait until the judge said dog. When her tail left the ground, I knew she was gone, a low heel under my breath brought her right back. I actually thought I might get away with it, She proceeded to nail their triple, but coming back from the second bird, I got the "well I guess we'll let you pick them up" The Judges were wearing their hearing aids that day, they really should out law those.