[Scott Cmelik]

i am at a total loss here and beyond frustrated. My 11 month old BLF is pushing me beyond anything I have dealt with. She has been through OB work, FF, CC and I have decided to go back and work on cleaning up three handed casting before i move on any further.

The problem I am running into is her mouthing issues on retrieves. Any time we run marks, or do any types of retrieves she gets very mouthy and when she gets back to me she will sit and let the bumper or birds just slide out of her mouth. She doesn't drop it, it just slides out. I have told her hold to try and remind her and it doesn't make a difference, I have ear pinched her when she drops the bumper or bird, no difference, I have tried giving her a nick-fetch-nick, no difference.

It seems like the more I correct her the worse it gets. At first I thought it was an issue where she didn't completely understand so I went back to hold for a week, doing OB work with a bumper in her mouth and I don't get a opportunity to correct. I have even taken her on a run around the block and she still won't give me the opportunity for a correction. Its only when we do any types of retrieves.

I am not sure what to do in order to correct this since all my corrections aren't working but making things worse.

 

[Scott Bass]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but I think you better go back to force fetch. You may want to get some help with someone with lots of experience as well. One of your corrections you mentioned was incorrect, it should be fetch -nick-fetch. Iwould stick to ear pinch in the field until you get force fetch down solid.

 

[steve schreiner]

How long have you been working on this issue...? Is the dog showing an urgency to pick it back up when commanded...? What is the reaction when pressure is applied ...? Sometimes it takes some time to create change in behavior....Steve S

 

[BJGatley]

How about taking a week off from training. It will benefit you and the dog. It will also give you some time to think about how to instead of how not.
Just advice.

 

[Scott Cmelik]

How long have you been working on this issue...? Is the dog showing an urgency to pick it back up when commanded...? What is the reaction when pressure is applied ...? Sometimes it takes some time to create change in behavior....Steve S

I have been working on this for about 3 months maybe 4. If I tell her fetch she flies to the bumper or bird and pick it back up no problem, but when she comes back to heel it slides back out again, over and over again.

One of your corrections you mentioned was incorrect, it should be fetch -nick-fetch. Iwould stick to ear pinch in the field until you get force fetch down solid.

sorry that should have been fetch-nick-fetch not nick-fetch-nick

 

[Scott Cmelik]

How about taking a week off from training. It will benefit you and the dog. It will also give you some time to think about how to instead of how not.
Just advice.

i have taken quite a bit of time off with my job lately.

 

[BuddyJ]

Scott,
Are you using hard bumpers or canvas? I had an issue with one of mine early on doing something similar because he is a very soft mouthed dog. I went to canvas bumper for about four months and greatly reduced the problem. He has no problem holding ducks now but he will still drop a hard bumper occasionally. Going back to the table and reinforcing FF as has been suggested is certainly a must just to be sure you didn't leave any holes. Good Luck.

 

[Scott Cmelik]

Scott,
Are you using hard bumpers or canvas? I had an issue with one of mine early on doing something similar because he is a very soft mouthed dog. I went to canvas bumper for about four months and greatly reduced the problem. He has no problem holding ducks now but he will still drop a hard bumper occasionally. Going back to the table and reinforcing FF as has been suggested is certainly a must just to be sure you didn't leave any holes. Good Luck.

doesn't matter what we use the outcome is always the same.

 

[BJGatley]

i have taken quite a bit of time off with my job lately.

No dog training at all. None.

 

[Scott Cmelik]

No dog training at all. None.

some yard work but I haven't been running marks or and pile drills lately.

 

[BJGatley]

some yard work but I haven't been running marks or and pile drills lately.

Don't do any dog training for a week. Go do some fishing or your favorite hobby and release your mind.
We somethimes get so focus we forget. It might be something simple.
Take a breather.

 

[JS]

ASSUMING the dog is thoroughly schooled in OB and FF, the appropriate command to reinforce is, "here" (or "heel") if the mouthing is taking place as the dog approaches you, OR "sit" if the mouthing is taking place after he sits at heel.

It's hard to picture what is going on (and harder to read a dog over the interweb) but those are the commands he is violating. "Here" or "heel" means to come here and nothing else (no chomping). Sit means sit, and nothing else (no chomping).

Momentary nicks sometimes are startling and lend to the excitement, making the situation worse. Sometimes a low level continuous can be more effective for this kind of thing. When you see the mouthing/chomping begin, give the appropriate command ("here" or "heel" or "sit") with a low level continuous burn until he stops mouthing and holds properly.

All this, of course, assumes the prerequisite FF and obedience work has been done and he understands it. If that is so, there is no need to go back and repeat it ... use what you have taught him.

JS

 

[kpolley]

I agree with above post. I have had a couple of dogs with a sloppy mouth. It seems to be perpetuated by warmer weather and when the dog has been worked pretty hard. Its hard to duplicate those conditions during ff. if your hold/ff/cc work is solid I have found mild continous collar pressure works best. I don't make a big deal about. Simply command fetch with a continous burn the first few times and then I have had success dropping the fetch command altogether. Just a mild burn when the dog spits it out. For the dogs I have dealt with, they know they aren't supposed to drop it and when they get burned immediately pick the bird back up. With consistency I have successfully cleaned up this issue. I have also noticed that this seems to be a young dog issue. once the dog matures and learns to tolerate the heat better I have noticed the issue works itself out.

 

[Renee P.]

Check out this thread:

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=81711

I looked at the Hillman site that someone (a hero today in my eyes) mentioned in this thread, and it was really helpful to me. Check it out, it may have a solution for you too.

 

[Evan]

Scott,

Any chance you can post a video clip showing this behavior, and your treatment of it?

Evan

 

[Dustin D]

She doesn't drop it, it just slides out.

I would consider that a drop for an 11 month old dog. Wouldn't it be safe to assume that she's in control of her mouth and she is indeed letting it slip out on purpose?

Would anyone else consider going back to 'Hold' with a puffy Paint Roller>to Super Foam Dokken Dummy>to *Force* with Regular Bumpers?

Seems logical enough to this noob.

 

[dexdoolittle]

Unlike most I would recommend moving on and also recommend to stop using pressure for it. Mostly likely it is a nerves issue. You have dwelled on it far to long. I would see if I could find some canvas bumpers to do 3 handed casting or force to a pile. Most will grow out of it, if you will let them. People seem to start nagging and it perpetuates the problem. Sometimes you can clean some of it up by concentrating on OB. As soon as she comes in give her a quick tap with a stick for sit. Getting her focused on something else, will take her mind off holding the bumper. Relax her nerves and have fun.

 

[DRAKEHAVEN]

Unlike most I would recommend moving on and also recommend to stop using pressure for it. Mostly likely it is a nerves issue. You have dwelled on it far to long. I would see if I could find some canvas bumpers to do 3 handed casting or force to a pile. Most will grow out of it, if you will let them. People seem to start nagging and it perpetuates the problem. Sometimes you can clean some of it up by concentrating on OB. As soon as she comes in give her a quick tap with a stick for sit. Getting her focused on something else, will take her mind off holding the bumper. Relax her nerves and have fun.

AGREE X 2, Remember it's not the "HOLD" Olympics or the FTP pile Olympics or whatever, train the whole dog.

 

[Jeff Huntington]

attrition attrition attrition (message was too short)

 

[captainjack]

Unlike most I would recommend moving on and also recommend to stop using pressure for it. Mostly likely it is a nerves issue. You have dwelled on it far to long. I would see if I could find some canvas bumpers to do 3 handed casting or force to a pile. Most will grow out of it, if you will let them. People seem to start nagging and it perpetuates the problem. Sometimes you can clean some of it up by concentrating on OB. As soon as she comes in give her a quick tap with a stick for sit. Getting her focused on something else, will take her mind off holding the bumper. Relax her nerves and have fun.

I like this approach as well. I have a neasrly 4 year old that will revert to a sloppy hold on bumpers during some drills. The more I point to it, the worse it gets. His hold on birds in trials and marking set ups is great.