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Thank u hunt em up for the advice I will gladly be putting up the informations on mine along with pedigrees so that people can look them up if they like and I liked the idea of putting ways ppl can have limited removed on the site never though of doing that. The reason I don't usually sell with limited is because of ppl that are in it to make a quick buck without health clearances. As of others said I don't see profit from breeding because u always put it back with things needed. Breeding is not a way to make money if u r doing it correctly. I do have a question if someone is willing to answer.... How do u put proof of dogs when they are cleared from eic, Cnm, and dm in my case Chester and lit bit are done but I have princess and sharky who r there kids so I never tested them due to it being a inherited disease
 

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I dare say that if you think raising pups is about making money, particularly if you have dams and are raising puppies correctly, then you are either highly misguided or possibly being slightly misleading. Unless you constantly have an FC-AFC being bred to the same, I think most folks would tell you that you will be doing pretty good to break even over time.

I would also say that for most folks on this forum, color is only a consideration after genetic testing and observed parental characteristics, and if the first two aren't right (at least for them) then color is not relevant. Listing color in and of itself is not good or bad. Listing color and striving to have it be the main focus of a potential buyer is probably not good.

If "silver labs" are popular, and thus more profitable, and if the only thing that really matters to most buyers is the color, then is a given breeder more or less likely to breed solely for color, forgetting all other health considerations? That certainly may not be how you do it, because I do not know how you do it. But that would be the concern of folks who are truly concerned about the breed and where it is going.

JMHO. YMMV.
I'm saying the reasoning behind any business is to make money. With breeding you still want to make money the only difference is that you are dealing with animals which if you are going to do anything like that you should care deeply about. There is a right way and a wrong way to anything. But I wasn't posting about all breeders. I was posting about vikingsilverlabs who came out and said what she was doing. Does the website have everything it should? No. But they are working on getting all the info out there.

And I agree that breeding just for color to make a profit without any care for the breed is wrong. VERY WRONG. But once again they said they are trying to breed the right way and make the dogs better. Just because there are some useless breeders out there that breed only for color because it is popular doesn't mean that all breeders who breed those colors do the same thing. There is a right and a wrong way to everything but I believe that they are doing the right thing and shouldn't get ripped apart for answering the questions you guys asked them to. They answered honestly about what they were doing and got beat up for it. That's not right.
 

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Thank u hunt em up for the advice I will gladly be putting up the informations on mine along with pedigrees so that people can look them up if they like and I liked the idea of putting ways ppl can have limited removed on the site never though of doing that. The reason I don't usually sell with limited is because of ppl that are in it to make a quick buck without health clearances. As of others said I don't see profit from breeding because u always put it back with things needed. Breeding is not a way to make money if u r doing it correctly. I do have a question if someone is willing to answer.... How do u put proof of dogs when they are cleared from eic, Cnm, and dm in my case Chester and lit bit are done but I have princess and sharky who r there kids so I never tested them due to it being a inherited disease
But, you mentioned you were selected by AKC for inspection because you've produced over 6 litters a year. That's a business. Businesses are for making money.
 

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You pretty much just lost all credibility quoting off the Culo website
DNA testing and mapping of silver labs was done during the close of the Twentieth Century and meticulous investigation of each silver labs ancestry was conducted by investigators from AKC. All conclusions were the same, i.e., "there was no reason to doubt that the dogs were purebred Labrador Retrievers," (see conclusion issued by AKC). Amazingly, the Flat Earth Opponents of Silver Labs counter these scientific conclusions with the incredibly insane accusation that the "cross-breeding" which allegedly produced the Silver Labs was either covered up by line breeding or happened to long ago to be detected by DNA testing. If anyone ever needed an indication of just how ignorant opponents of Silver Labs are, this statement should be the key. Every K-9 carries in its genes a complete history of its ancestors going all the way back to wolves.

Everything written about the Silver Labs is based upon speculation. One statement that is commonly made is that there had to have been a Weimeraner introduced into the bloodlines to produce the silver color. This statement has been proven false. UC Berkley studied the genetic makeup of the Silver Lab against that of the Weimeraner. Researchers concluded that it was not the same.


Conclusion


Silver Labs are pure bred Labrador Retrievers and their ancestry is beyond reproach. Fortunately, kennel clubs around the world do not have the political pressure from mercenary American breeders of "normal" colored labs and already accept silver labs without all the political fuss and pressure being applied to AKC (the original standard for a lab has always been "a coat of a solid color"). If a person should come upon one of the remaining "Silver Lab Hate sites" on the net and develops ANY doubts about Silver Labs, that person should go directly to AKC and ask the pertinent question to learn the facts."In 1987 we conducted an inquiry into the breeding of the litters that contained the dogs that were registered as silver and one of our representatives was sent to observe several of the dogs that had been registered as silver. Color photographs of these dogs were forwarded to the office of the American Kennel Club where the staff of the AKC and the representative of the Labrador Retriever Club of America examined them. Both parties were satisfied that there was no reason to doubt that the dogs were purebred Labrador Retrievers, however both parties felt that the dogs were incorrectly registered as silver. Since the breed standard describes chocolate as ranging in shade from Sedge to Chocolate, it was felt that the dogs could more accurately be described as chocolate than as silver."

Written by Robert Young of the AKC 3/27/00
Back when these dogs were "DNA tested" the ONLY thing DNA could prove, was that a tested dog's parents were those listed on the pedigree, and even that only if both parents were available for testing.


We feel it is just a matter of time before the AKC recognizes the Silver Lab color as it's own separate color.
It's not up to the AKC to decide whether or not to recognize the color. That is the job of the Labrador parent club, the LRC. And their position has been stated several other times on this thread. I posted this earlier on the thread, #146 but, I think you missed it: Bottom line: it really doesn't matter if the dilution gene was fraudulently introduced via crossbreeding or if it lurked there for generations leftover from some of the breeds behind the early Labradors. I would imagine those dogs crossed with the St. Johns water dogs had many traits, both dominant and recessive, that were selectively bred out/culled including the dilution gene. So it's just plain arrogant for people to breed it back in against the parent club's stated objection, no matter where it came from.
 

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Have you been at this game long? Breeding? Training? Competing? Do you have even the slightest idea how much effort, sacrifice, and dedication it takes to refine a breed like the Labrador to its potential? Even the essential colors offer more challenge than many breeders meet to keep health clearances optimized, let alone the best concentration of genetic performance traits.

Then comes the characters who just have to have something 'different'; a Sliver Lab, for example. I took a look at several sites just because of this discussion. Precious little in either regard; health or performance titles. How does lowering the standard on essential traits improve the breed?

Evan

Truthfully not long. But I'm not saying that I know anything. I know it takes a lot of work and dedication to refine a breed. But without help from other breeders would labs genetics be where they are today? The people breeding for the wrong reasons shouldn't be helped but the ones that are trying to do things right deserve some credit. How are they ever going to get the off colors to the standard of the "real" colors without the help of other breeders. They need good dogs to make good dogs. Isn't that why breeders are so selective with what they breed to. The best to the best to make even better? at one point in time the original colors were probably about how the new ones are but with selective breeding look where it's at. It's the same thing just started from square one.
 

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Paul yes I am a business but I don't do it for the money I do it for the joy I get from it. I have learned so much from color testing, health testing, how to deliver pups revive pups that were born dead, bottle feeding. It is happy and sad and the greatest learning experience I have had. I enjoy getting to place my pups with a amazing family and here back from them on how they turned out and how much joy something I produce gave someone so much love. It's things like this that I like and y I do it. It's not about just using random dogs with no care for health to make something and turn a profit. I want to know that the family who has my pup are going to have many years of love from it not have a dog that in 2 years needs to be put down from health defects or hip dysplasia.
 

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Thank u hunt em up for the advice I will gladly be putting up the informations on mine along with pedigrees so that people can look them up if they like and I liked the idea of putting ways ppl can have limited removed on the site never though of doing that. The reason I don't usually sell with limited is because of ppl that are in it to make a quick buck without health clearances. As of others said I don't see profit from breeding because u always put it back with things needed. Breeding is not a way to make money if u r doing it correctly. I do have a question if someone is willing to answer.... How do u put proof of dogs when they are cleared from eic, Cnm, and dm in my case Chester and lit bit are done but I have princess and sharky who r there kids so I never tested them due to it being a inherited disease
Here's the background on the OFA health database
http://www.offa.org/dbaserole.html

The OFA hip and OFA elbow clearance will automatically appear on the OFA web site when you send your dogs hip xrays in for their OFA evaluation. If you chose to Penn-Hip you can still submit a copy of your result to OFA with a fee. CNM and EIC results as well as ACVO eye clearance can also be recorded with OFA.

http://www.offa.org/index.html

You must only use test results from the organizations listed here
http://www.offa.org/dna_labs.html

For example, EIC DNA results will only be accepted by OFA from University of Minnesota Diagnostic Lab.

If you have your health results centralized at OFA, you can put a link to their record at OFA on the dog's page;
or you can just list your OFA clearance numbers with each dog; or you can scan each certificate issued and upload it to your web page.
It's done many different ways.
 

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reger- First off, I would like to say I appreciate how you jumped in on what you believed. Even if I or others do/don't agree.

I don't know if you missed it or chose not to read it but it has been stated the LRC (Labrador Retriever Club) REFUSES to accept any other color than the 3 that are on the AKC registration. Black, Chocolate, Yellow. I agree you have to start somewhere with a breeding program. When it comes to breeding, it should be about bettering the breed or enhancing traits that make these dogs better. I personally do not see how adding another color betters the breed or makes a dog better. You said: "They need good dogs to make good dogs.", I wholeheartedly agree. The thing is breeding poorly bred or substandard dogs to similar dogs is not doing that.

I am no way shape or form bashing Vikinglabs, she's trying to back up her dogs with proper qualifications. I like many others don't understand why but that's her business.
 

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Truthfully not long.
I appreciate your honesty, and your willingness to cut Vikingsilverlabs some slack. The fly in the ointment for me, and I suspect others who have made retrievers their life, is defining the criteria for "trying to do things right". I chose to focus on training. Breeding is a specialty of its own, and I know how hard they work...AND what are the critical elements they work so hard to promote. Read what the folks here are saying. They're talking about specific health clearances, and performance titles that reflect verifiable winning level traits. But more, there are proven crosses the good breeders know, and much more. It can be learned, but breeding to produce an exotic color as a focus of a program works against the odds for success in improving and maintaining the best of the breed. If you're willing to do it right, it means doing it all, and hanging in there for more than fur. Hats off to top breeders!

Evan
 

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I will admit I see ur guys point to it is very hard to except something different into a breed I was raised with a lab and a Rottweiler and yes I am open minded with the labs and I do believe it was a gene that has been around but hidden when it would appear in the past and only reason I will say this is mybfirstbever litter from a chocolate lab from a descent kennel was breed to a very high uppity up kennel, I had 9 pups 1 of which was a silver had never heard of such a thing until then. I was told to was a mutation because lord knows they will never claim it to be in there lines. If someone was to say they had a purple rott I'd say same thing u do and argue the purity of it. I think that it's good people have opinions because world would be boring with out them. I truely can't answer alot on training because I suck and have to pay ppl to do it for me. Only basic I can handle but I do know alot of things about breeding if anyone ever has questions there
 

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Discussion Starter #212
As the person who started this thread, which has for the most part remained fairly civil, I appreciate the viewpoints of the people who are trying to do a good job of what is an uphill battle.

I just have a hard time with misinformation being stated as fact when it's really just trying to cover up the truth, and that misinformation being passed on to prospective buyers. Why not just be honest and say in the advertising: "Silver is not a color recognized by the AKC or the breed standard and is a disqualification in the conformation show ring. The dogs can still compete in hunt tests and other performance events. We breed them because we like the color." Simple, honest truth. It says nothing negative about the color, just states the facts as they exist.
 

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I just have a hard time with misinformation being stated as fact when it's really just trying to cover up the truth, and that misinformation being passed on to prospective buyers. Why not just be honest and say in the advertising: "Silver is not a color recognized by the AKC or the breed standard and is a disqualification in the conformation show ring. The dogs can still compete in hunt tests and other performance events. We breed them because we like the color." Simple, honest truth. It says nothing negative about the color, just states the facts as they exist.
Because if the breeders were to make a comment like this how can they then justify the 30% or more markup on the price of a "rare" colored pup over that of just an old plain jane black, chocolate or yellow?
 

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Vikinglabs, you state you do clearances and are trying to improve your chosen type, which is by your website, the "dilute" shades of Labs, silver, charcoal, champagne, ivories, whites, whatever. Breeding for color is certainly your choice, there's a market for everything, no one is forcing anyone to pay for such things. However, the rest of your argument, where you state that you know a lot about breeding, that you do clearances, that you are trying to "improve" your dogs and get better, well, there appear to be some things lacking on your site. Your current litter on your site, neither sire nor dam has anything on OFA. This is at least the second litter for the dam. Her page says OFA pending, as do many of the dogs you have on there. The sire has nothing. If you are breeding on prelims or for some reason don't want finals on OFA or are using PennHip but not doing elbows, or are doing eyes but not submitting them to CERF or OFA, well, fine, but don't expect anyone to believe you are doing such clearances without any kind of proof beyond your sayso. We've mostly all been around the block a time or two. Sharon, who started this thread, did so asking for proof, still haven't seen it.

Of all the dogs on your site, only two show up on OFA with hips. One has elbows but no hips. So, you know about OFA, use it for some but not others? Yet, you have color tested every one of them and posted those results. Priorities?

Everyone has a learning curve. None of us are perfect. Not everyone knows about all their breed's stuff before breeding, many learn as they go, most in it for the long haul continue to modify, improve, drop some dogs that didn't provide what they wanted, add others, continually tweaking to get what they want. With a diverse breed like Labs, there is much disagreement among us as to what should be bred and shouldn't, bench vs field vs British vs silver ad nauseum. We have more threads on these topics than we do on training, I think. But what we mostly all agree on is that basic health clearances are pretty much non-negotiable, regardless of what "type" of Lab is being bred. No EIC/CNM/PRA affected Labrador should ever have to suffer from those conditions ever again, with a simple genetic test easily preventing affecteds. And while OFA, PennHip and CERF certainly aren't perfect or an absolute guarantee there won't be bad hips/elbows, at least doing them shows a bit of concern and attempt at avoiding problems with the only tools we have right now. Just putting "pending" next to the dog's name doesn't quite cut the mustard when they have already produced offspring.

Sharon posted this thread for specific answers to credibility for silver breeders, I still haven't seen one with consistent clearances and a clear breeding goal that goes beyond just producing a shade that will bring in the most $$ regardless of any other attributes or lack thereof a dog may have. I do see the same old spiel about how silvers have always been around being regurgitated, along with the same old tired excuses, whining about persecution, we're so mean and unwelcoming, blah blah. Well, it's quite simple. Put up or shut up. That's all that's being asked.
 
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And, don't care if someone just breeds for color or a type, don't care if they breed doodles or whatever designer dog anyone wants to buy. Do care that people do right by the dogs and don't put $$ before health. There are some trying, running their "dilutes" in HT and whatnot, I get that they love their shade/dog, I get that, and I'm not insulting the dogs themselves or those who truly love them and not the $$. I just don't personally care for those who have more excuses than clearances, whatever the breed.
 

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is Vikinglabs in Amish country?
 

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C'mon - 4 summer 2013 breedings at 900 average a pop based on colors bred for x roughly 32 pups! Choices abound and money will be lost at 29K.
 

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Vikinglabs, you state you do clearances and are trying to improve your chosen type, which is by your website, the "dilute" shades of Labs, silver, charcoal, champagne, ivories, whites, whatever. Breeding for color is certainly your choice, there's a market for everything, no one is forcing anyone to pay for such things. However, the rest of your argument, where you state that you know a lot about breeding, that you do clearances, that you are trying to "improve" your dogs and get better, well, there appear to be some things lacking on your site. Your current litter on your site, neither sire nor dam has anything on OFA. This is at least the second litter for the dam. Her page says OFA pending, as do many of the dogs you have on there. The sire has nothing. If you are breeding on prelims or for some reason don't want finals on OFA or are using PennHip but not doing elbows, or are doing eyes but not submitting them to CERF or OFA, well, fine, but don't expect anyone to believe you are doing such clearances without any kind of proof beyond your sayso. We've mostly all been around the block a time or two. Sharon, who started this thread, did so asking for proof, still haven't seen it.

Of all the dogs on your site, only two show up on OFA with hips. One has elbows but no hips. So, you know about OFA, use it for some but not others? Yet, you have color tested every one of them and posted those results. Priorities?

Everyone has a learning curve. None of us are perfect. Not everyone knows about all their breed's stuff before breeding, many learn as they go, most in it for the long haul continue to modify, improve, drop some dogs that didn't provide what they wanted, add others, continually tweaking to get what they want. With a diverse breed like Labs, there is much disagreement among us as to what should be bred and shouldn't, bench vs field vs British vs silver ad nauseum. We have more threads on these topics than we do on training, I think. But what we mostly all agree on is that basic health clearances are pretty much non-negotiable, regardless of what "type" of Lab is being bred. No EIC/CNM/PRA affected Labrador should ever have to suffer from those conditions ever again, with a simple genetic test easily preventing affecteds. And while OFA, PennHip and CERF certainly aren't perfect or an absolute guarantee there won't be bad hips/elbows, at least doing them shows a bit of concern and attempt at avoiding problems with the only tools we have right now. Just putting "pending" next to the dog's name doesn't quite cut the mustard when they have already produced offspring.

Sharon posted this thread for specific answers to credibility for silver breeders, I still haven't seen one with consistent clearances and a clear breeding goal that goes beyond just producing a shade that will bring in the most $$ regardless of any other attributes or lack thereof a dog may have. I do see the same old spiel about how silvers have always been around being regurgitated, along with the same old tired excuses, whining about persecution, we're so mean and unwelcoming, blah blah. Well, it's quite simple. Put up or shut up. That's all that's being asked.
Most excellent point.. I have a friend/co-worker who insisted on getting a silver pup.. She assured me that the breeder sent her some "health clearances", and I sent her the links to look them up, which she didn't do. Turned out both parents were under 2 years old. She paid $1600 for this dog. WTF.. When she got the pup, she brought her to train with us, and she loved to retrieve and LOVED birds.. My friend ended up not loving the sport, but is very much in love with her dog and has lots of parlour tricks, and hikes etc.. Anyhow, she was a very cute pup, but looked like a Weim..

Now that this dog is 2, she seems built NOT like a lab.. She has very narrow hips, weird wave to her fur, and has an interesting personality. She looks nothing like a pure lab, color-wise or build.. Here is a pic of Darla, Spanky and Nahla the silver...

306901_2446846529440_1857074045_n.jpg
 
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