RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF banner

221 - 240 of 246 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,252 Posts
My sister got a dilute Lab last year. Before the poor pup was 6 mos., multiple vet trips revealed that it's a train wreck of crippling dysplasia and autoimmune problems. She tried to contact the breeder (who claimed to have a health guarantee) and found the website down and phone disconnected, but did find others with similar problems doing an internet search. Sadly, I believe her experience is the norm. Most of the general pet buying public has no idea of how to look up hips, elbows and clearances on OFA and sadly, believe websites where charlatans claim their dogs have "cleared" hips, etc. For this reason, I harbor a special animosity toward lying frauds who produce animals destined to live pain-filled lives.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,586 Posts
My sister got a dilute Lab last year. Before the poor pup was 6 mos., multiple vet trips revealed that it's a train wreck of crippling dysplasia and autoimmune problems. She tried to contact the breeder (who claimed to have a health guarantee) and found the website down and phone disconnected, but did find others with similar problems doing an internet search. Sadly, I believe her experience is the norm. Most of the general pet buying public has no idea of how to look up hips, elbows and clearances on OFA and sadly, believe websites where charlatans claim their dogs have "cleared" hips, etc. For this reason, I harbor a special animosity toward lying frauds who produce animals destined to live pain-filled lives.
As much as I try to educate people I know about health clearances and the importance of knowing something about the parents, nobody listens. They think it is only important for competition dogs, and they only want a pet. It is hard to resist any puppy, so do your research before going to pick the puppy because nobody can leave without one.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
175 Posts
They already developed one. It's called a Weimaraner.
zing!!

My main problem with these dilutes is the falsehoods that the breeders tell. Dilutes are not a standard color, they never will be a standard color and own up to the fact that the first one was produced by someone who bred Labs and Weimaraner. If they are so prevalent in the breed as the silver mutt people claim, being there since the beginning, why hasn't any reputable breeder of chocolates produced one? Why doesn't ANY Kennel Club in the world recognize the color?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
45 Posts
i have heard stories that back in the 30s till maybe the 60s breeders would kill pups that were anything other than black. and make all kinds of excuses as to how nothing else was a real lab. from the sounds of some of you and your views on this maybe any breeder who has one gets rid of the evidence before someone says he has muts and is passing them off as labs. i dont care one way or the other about it, hell as long as the dog hunts who cares.
i do like the looks of the silvers. thought about getting one just to piss off the guys in my club then i saw the price and didnt think the joke was that funny.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
131 Posts
i do like the looks of the silvers. thought about getting one just to piss off the guys in my club then i saw the price and didnt think the joke was that funny.
The price tag wouldn't have been the joke.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,351 Posts
Interesting read,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but there just Lab's. Why all the fuss?????????????:confused::confused:;-);-)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,876 Posts
Interesting read,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but there just Lab's. Why all the fuss?????????????:confused::confused:;-);-)

I guess lab owners have a lot more time on our hands in comparison to golden owners,considering it takes awhile to pick out proper bandannas for the days task ahead. Then spend that afternoon combing their coat because they jumped in the pond after a frog :cool:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
919 Posts
Interesting read,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but there just Lab's. Why all the fuss?????????????:confused::confused:;-);-)
EEEEeeeeeee...I suppose we could start breeding in Pomeranians or JACK RUSSELL's to get a better canoe lab too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,786 Posts
i have heard stories that back in the 30s till maybe the 60s breeders would kill pups that were anything other than black. and make all kinds of excuses as to how nothing else was a real lab. from the sounds of some of you and your views on this maybe any breeder who has one gets rid of the evidence before someone says he has muts and is passing them off as labs. i dont care one way or the other about it, hell as long as the dog hunts who cares.
i do like the looks of the silvers. thought about getting one just to piss off the guys in my club then i saw the price and didnt think the joke was that funny.
I've been told by two different old timers, one highly respected for a line he developed the other a long time pro trainer. Both have made comments that Chocolates and often yellows were culled by many breeders which considered them inferior.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
462 Posts
Considering that back in the "old days" they culled for lots of things they didn't want, it's kind of hard to draw a comparison to what people do now and why.

Since the only color labs recognized by the breed club are black, yellow, and chocolate, that breeding for a different color is not improving the breed in any way and is in fact detrimental to the breed as you are purposely increasing the incidence of a trait that was bred out of the breed on purpose, or that was not intended to be in the breed. On top of that, in order to increase the incidence of that undesirable recessive trait, you are putting undue emphasis on color in your breeding while giving less importance to important factors such as performace, health, structure, etc.

Kind of seems like if your goal is to create a dog that isn't what the breed club says their breed should be, why don't you just create your own new breed and start your own breed club and stop messing around with Labs, and trying to say you have some kind of special lab when the very thing that makes it special is a disqualification. The added benefit for you on that is you would be free to cross with wiemaraners and other breeds to get what you want.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,775 Posts
i dont care one way or the other about it, hell as long as the dog hunts who cares.
I'm not sure that the argument is completely about the purity of the breed so much as about the potential health problems that seem to be associated with breeding solely for color. Whether it can hunt or not, if selecting for this color means ignoring genetic problems like bad joints, a tendency to blindness, a propensity for certain cancers, or other debilitating or life shortening conditions, I most certainly would care (and I hope so would you).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
45 Posts
that is a good point. i was thinking all things equal as far as health goes and just color being the deciding factor. i dont want anyone thinking i would want a less healthy dog just for the sake of color. i do like the way they look but
not the price or health problems.
but if they are indeed a mix dog, i have always been tolled that most of the time would help with health problems. something about mutts get the best from both breeds and less of the bad traits. just something i have heard.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,837 Posts
Come on Shawninthesticks....................... you know that Goldens don't go in the water.
Geez :/
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,876 Posts
Sue, that is not true ...I once seen one go after a frog like crazy...well not really but it did put its front feet in the water and perk its ears up.:rolleyes:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
Sharon, here is what is wrong with your credibility challenge, which also addresses some other comments made.
The breeders who are doing these clearances typically do not have many "silver" Labs. Most if their Labs are BYC but carry the dilute gene in a homozygous recessive state. These are the breeders who know that is it plain stupid to keep inbreeding the already inbred silver lines. These are the breeders who are trying their darnedest to breed to the best lines they possibly can to expand the gene pool and eliminate any possible affects of historic inbreeding. They are the breeders who invest way more than they could ever hope to make. They are doing it because the love Labradors and they love their Labradors and want them to be every bit as good as any Labrador regardless of color. Because of the vicious hatred, as is again being displayed here over the last few days, these breeders rarely will provide full internet access to the names of their dogs, or even certifications that give that away. If they are "labeled," as many would like to do, as horrid unethical puppy mill'ers they would have a difficult time breeding a better Lab, and the dogs suffer yet again. It used to be easier to get that info until last year.
In the Last year, due to a "Silver" winning the Potomac Obedience trial and the witch hunt that the show community went on afterward, many silver breeders have moved to protect their Labs and their efforts to continue to improve by keeping their dog's identities private. That said, they are providing that info to committed puppy buyers, or should be (again, people should not buy from a breeder that will not prove their certifications, titles, etc).

The demand for a pedigree without the three kennels mentioned is again a hard sell, obviously due to the reasons just stated, but more so that those other silver lines that are unrelated to those kennels are not going to be divulged because then they are labeled and the ability breed top lines to them is significantly reduced. It may mean nothing to you, but some of these unknown silver lines are now being shown in AKC for conformation titles, two that I am aware of have already earned their CH; their are probably others. The last thing these breeders want is for their Labs to be ridiculed and derided for carrying the dilute gene when they are obviously in standard, and certainly they can do with out the personal attacks and vitriol of the self-righteous breed police. Folks can rest easier here, there are not very many silver breeders who are breeding heavily into the FC lines yet, there are a few, but not nearly as many as are accessing the conformation lines.
I would also add that it has NEVER, EVER, NOT ONCE, IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM been proven that Culo bred or ever owned weims. Same is true for Beavercreek. If you are going to require that a pedigree go without these silver kennel names, you had better be willing to actually prove they are crossed with weims.

Including Kellogg is unwise. I would bet that 90+% of the Labs here on RTF have Kellogg behind them somewhere. That is one of the longest existing field Labrador Kennels in the US. The claim that some breeder once saw Kellogg with weims and all kinds of dogs jumping fences, and a purported advertizement in Gundog mag for blue or gray Labrador from Kellogg have been exposed as an outright lie (which interestingly RTF played a part in exposing a few years back). You bet most silver lines have Kellogg behind them, big deal, they all have other well known and more closely related lines too, Lockerbie, Sandylands, etc. One that you see commonly that recently caught my interest here on RTF is Wanapum. The supposed cross breeding that is said to be attributed to Kellogg, would have been during the peak of Mayo's time. So...I guess I am saying be careful, you are accusing one of the more prominent Labrador breeders, in Mayo Kellogg, of being responsible for crossing Labs with weims. I'm sure he'd have some fair words to say to you about that were he alive today. A few years after Mayo died, Hugh apparently bought a Culo line Lab but it was later sold from what I've learned.

Not to deride your credibility challenge, but you know as well as anyone that the great majority of Labrador breeders in this country can't meet all of what you list in 1, 2, & 3, if any of it. I'm sure many here on RTF can, but again, I would suspect that it is a great minority of the 15,000+ RTF members, probably a good minority of the nearly 3000 active members. Chances are you have only a half-dozen or so silver breeder that are even on RTF, of those, maybe half are following this thread. Your challenge, as formulated and presented, is quite safe to prove your preconceived point.

I think people like Robert have real guts to be so bold here on RTF. Instead of ridiculing him and others, why not recognize that they are here to learn and better their Labs and themselves. Why not help them with friendliness and encouragement instead of meanness and provocation. The retriever community of RTF has proven many times that it is better than to wallow in the quagmire (though we have our days). I've seen people here do amazing things for perfect strangers, even those that may not totally agree with in some ways (dogs and otherwise). It is discouraging to see people here rabidly lambasting perfect strangers and calling for a lynch mob as was "jokingly" suggested in the other thread.
Rise Up!
Been doing a lot of pedigree tracing and trying to determine other outcrossing which occurred which may explain Dilutes. Doing this because, there has been zero witness of Weims of Kelloggs property. Also zero evidence of culo having Weim. So I was wondering what other lines you may know about besides Kellogg that had dilute litters? Or what outcrossing you may know about which carry the dilute that were used.. I see many outcrossing documented, which carried at least 1 copy of the dilute,
which could explain the silver.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,660 Posts
I’ll bite. The stud book for Labradors was closed in 1916, which means that no out-crosses would be allowed or acknowledged after that point in order to keep the breed pure. So the source of the outcross is moot. Any outcross after 1916 deems the resulting dogs not purebred Labradors.

The dilute color gene did not occur in Labradors when the stud book was closed, hence the appearance of it means an unsanctioned out-cross,hence NOT purebred Labradors.

End of story.

Meredith
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,427 Posts
Discussion Starter #239
Been doing a lot of pedigree tracing and trying to determine other outcrossing which occurred which may explain Dilutes. Doing this because, there has been zero witness of Weims of Kelloggs property. Also zero evidence of culo having Weim. So I was wondering what other lines you may know about besides Kellogg that had dilute litters? Or what outcrossing you may know about which carry the dilute that were used.. I see many outcrossing documented, which carried at least 1 copy of the dilute,
which could explain the silver.
Crist (Culo) didn't own a Weimaraner. And he always carefully stated he never owned one when questioned, which is true, he didn't own one. That's called lying via omission. However....

He did complain loudly (and there are credible witnesses to this) about the Weimaraner that kept sniffing around his kennels, and right after that, POOF! Dilute puppies. He then inbred heavily, using mother to son, father to daughter, brother to sister, etc. to keep getting the color.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
354 Posts
Hi Meredith,
Just a note. The British Kennel Club allowed retriever crossbreds and interbreds until at least 1937. Interbreds were crosses between the retriever breeds recognized at that time. For instance, a Labrador would be bred to a golden retriever (quite common). The puppies from that litter would be registered as Interbreds. One of those pups could then be bred to another purebred, registered golden, and be registered as a purebred golden.

Crossbreds consisted of a retriever breed bred to another breed or do who wasn't a retriever. Many times the non-purebred was not registered. Those crossbreds would then be registered, bred back into purebred lines, and eventually be registered as purebreds.

I am in no way saying this produced a dilute gene or was the background of silver Labradors. I am NOT an advocate of silver labs. But thought you might find this interesting that the English Kennel Club allowed this type of breeding and registry up until, I believe, the start of World War II. (I have some English Kennel Club stud books listing registrations of these retriever interbreds and crossbreds.)

So, in the third generation, these interbreds or crossbreds would be registered as a purebred. If someone imported one of these dogs to the U.S., the Kennel Club would provide the official export pedigree and the dog could be registered with the AKC as a purebred.

I found this pretty fascinating.

I’ll bite. The stud book for Labradors was closed in 1916, which means that no out-crosses would be allowed or acknowledged after that point in order to keep the breed pure. So the source of the outcross is moot. Any outcross after 1916 deems the resulting dogs not purebred Labradors.

The dilute color gene did not occur in Labradors when the stud book was closed, hence the appearance of it means an unsanctioned out-cross,hence NOT purebred Labradors.

End of story.

Meredith
 
221 - 240 of 246 Posts
Top