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I don't know anything about the inheritability of cruciate ligament disease, but I do know that our dogs are the only athletes who are pulled out of a box, walked to the line, and sent off as hard as they can go with no warm up. If they are lucky, they are staked out to stand around when they are done. If they are unlucky, they are stuffed back in the same box.

Whether you are concerned with cruciate injuries, or ANY injuries, our dogs deserve better pre- and post-training care. Some good friends just showed me a drill Bobby George does with all his dogs first thing each day to stretch them and warm them up. Since you can't warm them up with bumpers at trials, take your dog out for a 20-minute walk before she runs, and walk her around when she's done. Can't hurt, and it might help.
 

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Some good friends just showed me a drill Bobby George does with all his dogs
something Bobby and I discussed 2 or 3 years ago advocated by a very smart and astute physical therapist I know quite well.....;)

Dr. Steiss advocates warming up prior to running, something we do at field trials that we call airing but something we rarely do in training
 

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I don't know anything about the inheritability of cruciate ligament disease, but I do know that our dogs are the only athletes who are pulled out of a box, walked to the line, and sent off as hard as they can go with no warm up. If they are lucky, they are staked out to stand around when they are done. If they are unlucky, they are stuffed back in the same box.
This may be one of the most insightful posts I have read. If you look back at NCAA Div 1 Football and the NFL back in the 80’s and 90’s and the amount of knee injuries that took place during that time period compared to now it is staggering. Two things have changed in Football that have reduced ACL knee injuries:

1) Playing surfaces were improved from the old Astro Turf surface back to Natural Grass or to Super Turf, which is a synthetic turf with blades that are 5 to 6 inches long and compacted with ground up tires and tennis shoe soles.

2) Pre-Game up warm up is no longer a bunch of guys standing around doing static stretches but if you watch your favorite team warm up it is a series of dynamic moves that incorporate both yoga & palates in a series of movements that warm up both the core and strengthen and lengthen major muscles and joints. At Athletes Performance www.athletesperformance.com (they will train approximately 15 First Round Draft Picks for the NFL Draft) They call this warm up Movement Prep which is the dynamic warm up I described above and all their athletes do this prior to competing and their injury occurrence has fallen dramatically.

How does this correlate to our K9 athletes? Perhaps in our demands to win a 120 dog open we have breed and trained these athletes to navigate at a high rate of speed, terrain and obstacles they normally would not negotiate (Put the mark where the dog doesn’t want to go). So in a nut shell, we have breed and trained these animals to write checks their bodies may have trouble cashing.

Couple this with the fact that most of these animals sit in a box most of the day are brought out, told to go poop, and then go off to the line cold. No warm up, no time to acclimate, nothing…….just 0 to 60 at the blink of an eye.

If you ask me, it’s not genetic it is a combination of high drive, awkward obstacles or unnatural surfaces on the way to a mark, and an athlete that is not properly warmed up for the demands placed on their body.

Just my $.02 worth but I think there is something to it.


RD
 

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Ed,

Do you think there is anything to the claim that torn ACLs or anything of that nature is genetic?

Or are these dogs like all athletes’…human or animal…when the body is tested to the limits at some point something is going to give?
 

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Forgive my ignorance,but would it be wise to regularly work your dogs with a road harness and chains once the dog has matured to build strength and muscle mass? Could this possibly prevent injuries to the knees,and other joints.?


Bryan.
 

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That is incorrect and simply revisionist history with no substantiation, I was around 20 years ago, 30 years ago too, collar basic training is no different now (other than the quality of the equipment) than it was then.
I have not been around 20+ years and offer this only becuause of the conversations that I have had with other well aged field trialers who have told me as much. It may be incorrect in your world 20-30 years ago, but to say that it's completly incorrect, revisionist with no substantiation really only shows nothing more than your age and grumpy level currently in your life.
 

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I have not been around 20+ years and offer this only becuause of the conversations that I have had with other well aged field trialers who have told me as much. It may be incorrect in your world 20-30 years ago, but to say that it's completly incorrect, revisionist with no substantiation really only shows nothing more than your age and grumpy level currently in your life.

Well when it comes to credibility Misty Marsh, EdA backs his claims up with experience. You support your opinion with second hand conversation and insults.
Nice.
 

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Forgive my ignorance,but would it be wise to regularly work your dogs with a road harness and chains once the dog has matured to build strength and muscle mass? Could this possibly prevent injuries to the knees,and other joints.?


Bryan.

This question is similar to my own earlier.
Someone have an answer?
 

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I have not been around 20+ years and offer this only becuause of the conversations that I have had with other well aged field trialers who have told me as much. It may be incorrect in your world 20-30 years ago, but to say that it's completly incorrect, revisionist with no substantiation really only shows nothing more than your age and grumpy level currently in your life.
When your dog had a torn cruciate several years ago you didn't even know what it was. Now you had one repair and you are an expert. Another #2.
 
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I don't know anything about the inheritability of cruciate ligament disease, but I do know that our dogs are the only athletes who are pulled out of a box, walked to the line, and sent off as hard as they can go with no warm up. If they are lucky, they are staked out to stand around when they are done. If they are unlucky, they are stuffed back in the same box.

Whether you are concerned with cruciate injuries, or ANY injuries, our dogs deserve better pre- and post-training care. Some good friends just showed me a drill Bobby George does with all his dogs first thing each day to stretch them and warm them up. Since you can't warm them up with bumpers at trials, take your dog out for a 20-minute walk before she runs, and walk her around when she's done. Can't hurt, and it might help.
Great post. Although we don't have a formal pre-training warm-up, we do try to get the dogs out to air and run (at their own pace, nothing formal) prior to training, typically as we're getting the equipment off the truck/trailer.

While I do think certain dogs do have a predisposition to ACL tears (from what I understand, it correlates with the angle of the tibeal plateau), I'm sure there are some injuries caused by lack of warming up and cooling down.

Moreover... Just the MENTAL/EMOTIONAL benefits to being able to RELAX on the training field are reason enough to let them air/run before and tie them out afterwards. Plus it actually does have some training benefit in teaching the dog to be relaxed while other dogs work.
 

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IMHO,
I believe that the bad hips or hip AND the cruiciate injury on the same side IS directly related.
I also strongly believe that young dogs are being pushed way too hard to run trials @ 12,13 months of age.You know that means these babies have gone through the basics..... These babies are still growing.
Mentally maybe, physically?????????
Just a thought;)
Sue
I've wondered this too.... in agility, we don't even jump them until they are finished growing...
 

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Ed,

Do you think there is anything to the claim that torn ACLs or anything of that nature is genetic?

Or are these dogs like all athletes’…human or animal…when the body is tested to the limits at some point something is going to give?
I have no doubt that there is a genetic predisposition and perhaps some unidentified factors which contribute to the seemingly large numbers of CCL tears in Retrievers and some other athletic dogs.

In Rottweilers CCL tears are almost epidemic One could conclude that in that breed there must be a genetic predisposition. Why would this not be true in other breeds as well?

I do not believe that the incidence of CCL tears has any significant realtionship to the tasks Retrievers perform, if that were true CCL tears would be rampant in Pointers, working Border Collies, and Sled dogs.

There certainly may be some relationship to the level of physical conditioning (or lack of) because we know that exercise strengthens muscle and connective tissue and probably affects bone density too.

Not Old Or Grumpy Regards....:cool:
 

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Some good friends just showed me a drill Bobby George does with all his dogs first thing each day to stretch them and warm them up. Since you can't warm them up with bumpers at trials, take your dog out for a 20-minute walk before she runs, and walk her around when she's done. Can't hurt, and it might help.
Would you be willing to describe the drills here? I come from a horse background, and know we never ever trained without at least of 30 minutes of planned warm-up. What we be ideal for our dogs as far as a routine?

Also, I did not know you couldn't throw bumpers for the dog at trials. I thought that was ok, as long as it wasn't a training drill. Is this right?
 

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Since you can't warm them up with bumpers at trials.
Huh?....not sure where that came from, you cannot train on the field trial grounds but tossing a bumper a few times to warm the dog up does not constitute "training", or at least it does not in my opinion
 

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I have no doubt that there is a genetic predisposition and perhaps some unidentified factors which contribute to the seemingly large numbers of CCL tears in Retrievers and some other athletic dogs.

In Rottweilers CCL tears are almost epidemic One could conclude that in that breed there must be a genetic predisposition. Why would this not be true in other breeds as well?

I do not believe that the incidence of CCL tears has any significant realtionship to the tasks Retrievers perform, if that were true CCL tears would be rampant in Pointers, working Border Collies, and Sled dogs.

There certainly may be some relationship to the level of physical conditioning (or lack of) because we know that exercise strengthens muscle and connective tissue and probably affects bone density too.

Not Old Or Grumpy Regards....:cool:

That is good stuff Ed…that is why you’re a doc and I am not…I have another question…do you think it is genetically related to the breed or bloodlines within a breed or both?

Never thought of you as grumpy...you’re just not real tolerant of stupid crap.
 

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I have not been around 20+ years and offer this only becuause of the conversations that I have had with other well aged field trialers who have told me as much. It may be incorrect in your world 20-30 years ago, but to say that it's completly incorrect, revisionist with no substantiation really only shows nothing more than your age and grumpy level currently in your life.
either your other well aged FT'ers are delusional or you are unaware (read ignorant) of EdA credentials and reputation in the retriever community and Vet profession...they are above reproach....I think the only time he is grumpy is if he goes out on the town with a few well known rebel rousers named Guthrie and Mehringer and their friends Don Tesoro, Jack Daniels, and a chap named Johnnie Walker
 

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…do you think it is genetically related to the breed or bloodlines within a breed or both?
.
I vote for both, in the past we saw them sporadically and never in a young dog, especially under 1 year of age.

The same can be said for EIC, we saw it so infrequently that it was not an issue even though we did not know what we were seeing at the time.
 

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I believe there is some evidence that a dog may be more prone to certain injuries before the growth plates have closed. Would seem reasonable that it could also apply to other structures that are not yet fully mature. Growth plates are supposed to close "around" a year of age, but could vary between dogs ... not always "exactly" at 12 mos; could be 13 or 14 mos for some dogs.

And, yes, in agility blown cruciates are not uncommon. And, yes, it happens to Border Collies as well as other breeds. One friend recalls the horror of watching a BC blow out in the middle of a course.

It's not a "new" thing to FT dogs. As I recall, Air Express had cruciate repair. A friend had bred to him & related that information.
 
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