Derby Mark

893 Views 14 Replies 7 Participants Last post by labsforme, 17 d ago

Dave_Verbyla

Discussion Starter · 23 d ago

Water Water resources Map Green Land lot

Last series of a derby. 5mph wind out of North. Dogs start on a hilll top.
Pick up the shorter mark. Longer mark was tough.
A monster throw to place a duck across a big channel well away from the shoreline.
Most dogs had long hunts likely due to they would hit dragback scent and think it was an island mark,
the smell the bag of ducks and see the gunner and hunt both sides of the gunner, then back to the island,
swim into the wind up the channel, back to the gunner, etc.

Dog A is like most previous dogs, hunts the mark with persistence, thinking island mark, dealing with dragback, hunting both sides of the gun, hunting within a 60 yard area and takes ~5 minutes to discover the bird.

Dog B initial line is pushed by the handler to the south, swims across the shortest swim, beaches, and immediately winds the bird.

As a judge, which dog marked better?
I do not judge, but would like to hear judge's perspective. Thanks.

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drunkenpoacher

· #2 · 23 d ago

Hard to say without being there or at least drawings of what the dogs did but 5 minutes would be a very long hunt.
With the cross wind and angle of the shorelines I would expect some dogs to fade to the left and wind the long mark.

paul young

· #3 · 23 d ago

From your description, It's impossible to say.
Live by the crosswind, die by the crosswind. At least for the 2 dogs you described, the Judges proved that dogs will honor their nose if they are presented with the chance. Especially dogs less than 2 years old.
Perhaps it was used up in an earlier series, but I see what would appear to be several nice downwind marks that would minimize winding the bird from outside of the area of the fall while challenging the dog's marking ability in your picture.

captain2560

· #4 · 23 d ago

paul young said:
From your description, It's impossible to say.
Live by the crosswind, die by the crosswind. At least for the 2 dogs you described, the Judges proved that dogs will honor their nose if they are presented with the chance. Especially dogs less than 2 years old.
Perhaps it was used up in an earlier series, but I see what would appear to be several nice downwind marks that would minimize winding the bird from outside of the area of the fall while challenging the dog's marking ability in your picture.

Dave_Verbyla said:
View attachment 92754
Last series of a derby. 5mph wind out of North. Dogs start on a hilll top.
Pick up the shorter mark. Longer mark was tough.
A monster throw to place a duck across a big channel well away from the shoreline.
Most dogs had long hunts likely due to they would hit dragback scent and think it was an island mark,
the smell the bag of ducks and see the gunner and hunt both sides of the gunner, then back to the island,
swim into the wind up the channel, back to the gunner, etc.

Dog A is like most previous dogs, hunts the mark with persistence, thinking island mark, dealing with dragback, hunting both sides of the gun, hunting within a 60 yard area and takes ~5 minutes to discover the bird.

Dog B initial line is pushed by the handler to the south, swims across the shortest swim, beaches, and immediately winds the bird.

As a judge, which dog marked better?
I do not judge, but would like to hear judge's perspective. Thanks.

Not an optimum wind for Derby or any other mark. Test would be very stout and challenging if downwind. If the dog finds it crosswind without a hunt, the judges have to own that their mark was not protected from scenting.

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testdog

· #5 · 23 d ago

from info seen, I'd draw each mark noting any percieved W.A. , without seeing series. Gosh without seeing the speration, depth, line, yds ( not all equal ie some 300 plus yds, appear 175 etc etc). Crosswind marking test are not advisable ( head wind blind etc). Dragback maybe differnet definning gesture. Crosswind hip pocket nose full kinda thing maybe. I cannot say a dog running the last series of any FT event, with two marks, should generally not bailout or breakdown in route to memory bird land or water or wind. When reviewing complition of the trial, for your example. Typlically we see 8 marks ( 4 series) i would never guess what dogs are thinking enroute. Observe and note momentum determintion fighting all factors (scent wind terrain water temp etc). As for the running order and fate, well .... As for handler style to do everything within the rules and condition of the running field... Thats why two judges. And handler get there knee or exaggerated send to fight veriables. Can get into the goldie locks effect, there again, two judges, who can down grade mark drawing. Please note most fiddling fails, pulling too much, rubber band effect. Kneeing shore line ( 2 along shore) will usually get early water exit. dog B may good that, luck or handler experince. You noted 60yds for dog A , but did not note yds for when B exited water and with 5 mph wind pic , gather dog would wind thrower sation before AOF, likley drawn up some. Or If handlers are pick up down wind all those factors not so much infavor of Dog B. this one mark of 8. I would not favor dog break momentum on island, hunt up and down wind of the fall. Derby dogs gum shun is cute and painful. If I were handler of Dog A or B, glad to have the opptunity to gain some ground and gets some color, green is good in my eyes too. pickup on the last mark could cause anyone shed a tear . please excuse my grammer and spelling.

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drunkenpoacher

· #6 · 23 d ago

Which dog did the best job of "challenging the line to the mark"?

I've heard that's how to judge them.

Dave Kress

· #7 · 23 d ago

Since u asked and I have an opinion ( often times not a popular opinion ). It is a derby which should be judged on natural abilities and not trained abilities but this training thing has delivery to hand , a sit and a go when sent
Maybe this wasn’t the best derby test ; angled entries , across wind , etc.
what if the dog had run around the water for either or both birds but “stepped on it” is that a better job than taking the swim with a hunt.
derbies are hard to judge and harder to set up.
just me
Dk

Dave_Verbyla

Discussion Starter · #8 · 22 d ago

I realize that each mark needs to be judged, but for this one mark, would dog A or dog B be judged as having the better mark. One pro ran like Dog A another pro like Dog B.

Dog A hunts within 10 yards of the bird a couple times, but a 5-minute hunt due to dragback scent on island,scent from bird bag as swimming towards the mark, etc.

Map Watercourse Slope Terrestrial plant Grass

Dog B faster retrieve, but took shortest swim possible, 60-70 yards downwnd of mark when beaches on opposite shoreline

Ecoregion Map Green Natural environment Land lot

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drunkenpoacher

· #9 · 22 d ago

Dave_Verbyla said:
Dog A hunts within 10 yards of the bird a couple times, but a 5-minute hunt due to dragback scent on island,scent from bird bag as swimming towards the mark, etc.
View attachment 92777

Dog B faster retrieve, but took shortest swim possible, 60-70 yards downwnd of mark when beaches on opposite shoreline
View attachment 92778

We had this exact conversation recently.
Without question dog B is better than dog A in this test.
Briefly breaking down in drag back scent is understandable but hunting over a large area for 5 minutes means the dog did not mark the bird.
Dog B cheated some water but went directly to the mark without a hunt. If the dog winded the bird, that is my fault as a judge.

Reactions: 1

paul young

· #10 · 22 d ago

Thanks for the additional information.

Dave Kress

· #11 · 22 d ago

OP your answering your on question - which dog knew where the birds were. Derbies are about natural abilities ; de- cheating , angled entries are mostly trained factors
Derbies are very difficult to set up in terms of fairness. As an example an 18 month old likely has not had the same amount of training a 23 month has. So when we set up a tight corner entry in a derby the question is did the judge fail or the dog when he runs around the corner
Good luck
Dk

Reactions: 1

testdog

· #12 · 22 d ago

did dog A wind it? which dog knew where bird was? I cannot say, If shore was tappered, do think from water dog see gunner from island to shore side of fall? I not trying to be a smartass etc.. Its really hard to tell with overhead view. I say B would precieved do better than A on that one mark after revised drawing. I have no bias , no idea of event handlers or judges. But if one would present scenario, they may have been at event or ran. If so why would one not quitely, avoid that scene in future. I would not have let my dog hunt that long, I have made that mistake in AA in last series last bird, clean going into it. A couple times. Quick gets handle 3rd etc go home jam rjam. Tough sport , tough on: dogs, wallets, handlers, handlers family etc.. But there some great times , people, places youll' see along the way. I would do it over, if presented lifes rerrun. Would not change a thing except a: couple quick handles, stayed home couple times.

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drunkenpoacher

· #13 · 22 d ago

testdog said:
did dog A wind it? which dog knew where bird was? I cannot say, If shore was tappered, do think from water dog see gunner from island to shore side of fall? I not trying to be a smartass etc.. Its really hard to tell with overhead view. I say B would precieved do better than A on that one mark after revised drawing. I have no bias , no idea of event handlers or judges. But if one would present scenario, they may have been at event or ran. If so why would one not quitely, avoid that scene in future. I would not have let my dog hunt that long, I have made that mistake in AA in last series last bird, clean going into it. A couple times. Quick gets handle 3rd etc go home jam rjam. Tough sport , tough on: dogs, wallets, handlers, handlers family etc.. But there some great times , people, places youll' see along the way. I would do it over, if presented lifes rerrun. Would not change a thing except a: couple quick handles, stayed home couple times.

Huh?

testdog

· #14 · 22 d ago

8,508.

labsforme

· #15 · 17 d ago

Watched the whole test. The wind was blowing from the back of gun 1. Dogs taking the true line hit bird bag scent when going through the patch of Tules looking like an island ( hence drag back scent there too). Many of the dogs would hit the scent and get thrown off by it and some turned right and hunted the gun for a bit and then got across the water. Some did that several times. Will not comment as to not throw anyone under the bus. There was one dog slightly false lined left to get bird 1 and went a good deal left ,got across went 100 yds deep and then worked back to the bird. Judges took all into consideration.

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