[Sundown49 aka Otey B]

I had my ortho vet tell me about a study published by a team of researchers at some vet school... (forget stuff like details , due to age) lol but said dew claw removal interferes with joint movement.....Would some of our destinguished Vets tell me if mine is full of BS? Seriously has any paper came down the professional pipe line to that effect?

 

[Uncle Bill]

Interesting question, Otey. I've ONLY heard, I suspect like you and most on here, have them removed around birth. Hardly hurts, it's assumed...but no one to my knowledge has asked the pup eh? :roll: Sorta like a young lad's circumcision?

I have seen dogs that didn't have them removed, become injured by getting them almost ripped off while hunting. That's always been my concern. Plus it doesn't seem to have much logical usage. I'm not sure it's hooked to anything with strength, so it might become useful.

Hope we get a reasoned answer.

UB

 

[EdA]

.....Would some of our destinguished Vets tell me if mine is full of BS?

:shock:
It is unprofessional and unethical to refer to a colleague as "full of BS"

 

[Sundown49 aka Otey B]

Thanks Dr Ed.....

any one knows all dogs folks are full of BS sometimes.........LOL

 

[achiro]

.....Would some of our destinguished Vets tell me if mine is full of BS?

:shock:
It is unprofessional and unethical to refer to a colleague as "full of BS"

:lol:

Otey, as I recall there was a study or report written on the subject by a vet, I think she was out of Canada but don't remember for sure. I think there was a discussion on RTF about it. Seems, as I recall, that many said that there were some serious flaws in her interpretation of the study.
If I get bored enough I wil see if I can find the thread.

 

[achiro]

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=24935

 

[achiro]

.....Would some of our destinguished Vets tell me if mine is full of BS?

:shock:
It is unprofessional and unethical to refer to a colleague as "full of BS"

I don't know Ed, sounds like you were kind of saying that here?

the hypothesis in this case alleges the development of carpal degenerative joint disease subsequent to dewclaw removal in agility dogs

racing Greyhounds are uniquely susceptible to carpal DJD (arthritis) and most of them I have seen have dewclaws

most carpal injuries in working dogs are hyperextension injuries and it is quite reach to make a connection between carpal hyperextension injury and prepuberal dewclaw removal in puppies

I have owned and administered to hundreds of field trial dogs and I have dealt with 4 cases of carpal hyperextension injury, all 4 as a result of stepping into a hole while running, 3 had carpal arthrodesis (joint fusion) which effectively ended their careers, 1 had carpal ligament sclerotherapy and splinting and returned to full competition

in 30 years of retriever ownership and intensive training of same I have never had a dog with carpal DJD and only one of those dogs had dewclaws

 

[EdA]

Sorta like a young lad's circumcision?

a functional analogy UB, the dewclaw has a vein, artery, and nerve that supplies it, there is tremendous collateral circulation in the area but not single vein, artery, or nerve that interferes with the function of the carpal joint (the joint adjacent to it). I suspect this study (if it exists) was initiated and funded by some animal rights organization with an agenda :shock:

 

[Uncle Bill]

Thanks for bringing that one back, Russ. Oct of '05 I must have been hunting, because I don't recall seeing that thread at all.

A good conversation about the topic. Nothing rock solid for either position, only which ever way you wish to go and how your personal dog activities might effect your decision.

In my experience as to how my dogs are used, I'd find no reason to not remove them from the dog at the puppy stage. On the land I upland hunt, including the fences and other obstacles I hunt around, dew claws are of no value, and could be harmful to the dog.

Probably a good analogy would be the human appendix. If it didn't require invasive surgery, and was as easily removed as a foreskin, I suspect most babies would be rid of them at birth. Would have been far less painful for me than when mine was finally removed after rupturing.

UB...thinking it was nice to read some sage advice proffered by LVL once again. Hasn't she been on her sabbatical long enough? :roll:

 

[TxFig]

.....Would some of our destinguished Vets tell me if mine is full of BS?

:shock:
It is unprofessional and unethical to refer to a colleague as "full of BS"

Honestly is never unethical.

Hedging around the truth so as to appear professional, otoh and imho, is.

 

[Sundown49 aka Otey B]

thanks........

Thanks for the info. Most of my lifetime I was associated with the big running field trial pointers. My Dad as I recall never removed any dewclaws from those dogs and when on the average a big running Pointer covers about 25 miles in a 2 hour heat I really don't see how one way or the other it makes any difference. Some BIG name STUDS now have dew claws as I recall from some other posts.......just rambling.......

 

[AmiableLabs]

On studies like these it is not uncommon to see that they are agenda driven. :?

 

[Sundown49 aka Otey B]

My motive for asking this..........

My last litter was born when it was -9 degrees. When the 3rd day came when I normally have them removed it was only 5 above with a chill factor of - 16. Rather than taking the pups outside to take them to the vet and risk them getting chilled and losing the whole litter I did not go. I raise my pups in the house and I did not see any way to not risk killing the whole bunch. I have (knock on wood) NEVER had any dog in the 50 + years of having dog had any problem with a torn dew claw.

 

[Judy Chute]

I like the dew claws on...no "agenda" here.

In my library is "Peak Performance" , Coaching the Canine Athlete by M. Christine Zink DVM, PhD and Illustrated by Marcia Schlehr..2nd edition..

Also, "Jumping from A to Z", Teach Your Dog to Soar, ..again M. Christine Zink....and Julie Daniels.

I also own "A Study of the Golden Retriever" by Marcia R. Schlehr, 3Rd Edition. "Intent is to explain and clarify the Breed standard.. and to relate its requirements to the Golden's original intended function as a working retriever of game birds, and to those characteristics that make up "breed type"." etc etc.

In "Peak Performance"..pg 35..regarding Feet..she describes how many dogs have dewclaws. ..that some breeds have rear dewclaws, as well...and some breed standards require to have double dewclaws on rear legs..the Great Pyrenees and Briard. ..she goes on to say some breed standards spedify if dewclaws may be removed. and that removal prevents them from getting caught and injured..running over rough terrain, crusted snow etc. ..that it is relatively easy to surgically remove in pups three to five days of age..

She goes on to say that probably dew claws do assist in dog turning..especially when bearing its weight on one front leg..pastern is flat on ground, carpal pad cushions carpal joint as it his ground. Dewclaw is in contact with ground and may assist in turning by digging into the ground as dog's leg rotates... She explains function of the pads and in relation to the claws.

There are diagrams and actual pictures of dog's landing after a jump with pastern flat..

Everything seems to be explained..the options to have dew claws removed..or not..or per breed standard. It appears to be an explanation of the dew claws and their place in the dog's structure and possibly to assist the dog in movement..

One can understand..as explained in the book.. how the pads and claws together, would help the dog to move correctly, not slip..

The agility world...the dogs do such a huge amount of jump training. Then in trial, they must jump to a specific height depending on dog's height at withers. The sport has become very technical and fast to be competitive these days.. Dogs must jump tight, wrap/turn quickly after jumping...weave poles put great stress on their entire body including feet to push through. It goes on and on... they climb A-Frames, ramps to dog walks...see saws that hit the ground hard upon tipping.. This is a huge weight bearing sport..

Dogs..when puppies are taught where their front feet are in relation to their hind feet, with specific training for just that...so that they handle themselves safely and with confidence on all agility obstacles. This would also be true for obedience training to the higher levels.

My long-time obedience and agility trainer believes that her first Border Collie would have fared better in his physical health had the dew claws been left on.. He is a MACH..Master Agility Champion but retired at 7 years of age due to joint pain, arthritis, pasterns, scar tissue in the area. Whether or not that is true..is her opinion. But..she knows her dog and how he moves. She feels that dew claws would have been of benefit to him. Really , there is not "agenda" there at all..I know that for a fact!l

I really do not think there is an "agenda" in these books. But an explanation of canine movement, and the physical issues that dog's have in the sports they compete in..

These books are a source of information and education for me..to help me to teach my dog's to jump and move correctly and safely... in both agility and obedience competition. Obedience offers the high jump, bar jump and broad jump..a dog needs to jump correctly to be safe. The handler must know what the dog needs in distance to reach the take off point to jump..the landing before turning after the jump so that injury does not occur. This is all carefully trained in "pieces" .

This training and conditioning that is suggested does not hurt in field training and trialing, either, quite the opposite..at least in my humble opinion..

Have to add one more thing...my now retired Golden Retriever, "Andi", and I were students of Julie Daniels..and attended her well known Competition Camp, at her White Mountain Agility School, in NH some time ago. No one could have cared more for a dog's welfare than Julie..

"Edit"...we have two Golden boys with dew claws (breeder did not remove) and our pup is without them (breeder did remove)
Judy

 

[hhlabradors]

.....Would some of our destinguished Vets tell me if mine is full of BS?

:shock:
It is unprofessional and unethical to refer to a colleague as "full of BS"

Yes, but the fact that you did NOT say "he is NOT full of BS" speaks volumes.