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Do we still need Derbies?

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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Do we still need Derbies?
Is the average 18-24 month old trained only to mark?
Is this still the level which new FTers enter since the advent of HTs?

In this era of shinking grounds and work forces is this a significant stake?

Tim
 

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It is an important stepping stone for people who are interested in getting into the FT game. Some may find they don't like FT's, others will continue on to the other stakes.
 

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You don't need Derbies unless you have a young dog and want to play.
You probably don't need the Qual either, thats only for dogs and handlers that aren't quite ready for the Am and you probably don't need the Am.
Just go right straight to the Open get your butt beat off every weekend until you've had enough, then give the dog away buy yourself some golf clubs. Then you can sit around patting the new driver on the head, it won't go as straight as your old dog, but your marking skills will improve looking for lost golf balls but the good thing about it is you get to cuss after every shot!
 

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It's fun to see young dogs run -- can be grooming stage for a new dog as well as new owner/handler -- good way to learn about FTs -- same reason as having puppy stakes at FTs is important -- stepping stone for future FTers -- gets them hooked (and soon they've gone from a #1 to a #2 on their way to a #3)
 

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I agree with everything Ducksoup wrote. I am new to the FT game ( and HT's also as far as that goes) and I think Derby's and especially the puppy stake are important to us "Newbie's" if you will. It give's us the chance to get our feet wet and hone our skill's as a Handler and a trainer.

If you get rid of these and throw us right in with "The big guns" it might scare some of the newer people (like me) away.

My first FT will be run this June in the puppy stake, if it was not for this stake I most likely would not be running any this year.

Just my 2 cents.....

Drew
 

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Monty Willis said:
You don't need Derbies unless you have a young dog and want to play.
You probably don't need the Qual either, thats only for dogs and handlers that aren't quite ready for the Am and you probably don't need the Am.
Just go right straight to the Open get your butt beat off every weekend until you've had enough, then give the dog away buy yourself some golf clubs. Then you can sit around patting the new driver on the head, it won't go as straight as your old dog, but your marking skills will improve looking for lost golf balls but the good thing about it is you get to cuss after every shot!
I know you're tongue-in-cheek here, Monty, but I think the purpose of the qual is so you CAN get into the open. It's not for riff-raff ya know. :wink:

UB
 

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.

The biggest problem I have seen is people train and train for derbies and forget there blind work then it takes them forever to transition to Quals.
 

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Re: .

fowl hunter said:
The biggest problem I have seen is people train and train for derbies and forget there blind work then it takes them forever to transition to Quals.
Can anyone really compete in todays derbies without advanced handing to teach concepts?? Personally I think Quals are the place for the new trialer. Too hard for a new amatuer to get a derby dog truly ready to compete in such a short time.
 

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Re: .

NateB said:
fowl hunter said:
The biggest problem I have seen is people train and train for derbies and forget there blind work then it takes them forever to transition to Quals.
Can anyone really compete in todays derbies without advanced handing to teach concepts?? Personally I think Quals are the place for the new trialer. Too hard for a new amatuer to get a derby dog truly ready to compete in such a short time.
Can't speak for all dogs but yes they can compete. I know for a fact that you can still make the Derby list without using a collar or handling.

I also know that the transition for above mentioned dog was a Q win at 30 months. AFC at 4 years and FC at 5.

Winning Derbies is hard. Luck can become a big factor. Both Derby and Quals are great for the novice trainer/handler if they work at it. They can be competitive!


John
 

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no derby?

The biggest problem I have seen is people train and train for derbies and forget there blind work then it takes them forever to transition to Quals.
This is only a problem for the weaker dogs in my experience. I guess I should say " the dogs that can not be competitive in a marking game if blind training is taking place" Therefore, the handler sees it important not to run blinds so that his dog can compete on the weekends. To me, that is a sign of a dog that will not be competetive in all age anyway. So what is the problem? Many dogs run both derby and qual and sometimes the amateur in the same weekend. That is not the sign of a derby dog that is not running blinds in training.

I have to also respectfully disagree with NateB
Too hard for a new amatuer to get a derby dog truly ready to compete in such a short time.
I was a new amatuer trainer in 1998 when I ran my first field trial. It was a derby with a 14 month old dog that made the 3rd series in a 52 dog derby. The next weekend couldn't pull out the last bird in the 4th. The next seven trials jammed. Yes he jammed seven derbies in a row. I still can't understand that. Anyway, first dog, new trialer, running derbies ended up with 12 points in 16 trials with 9 jams, qual all age at 26 months, amatuer jams and one fourth at 3. So I do think that young trainers can be competetive even when running blinds in training if they work hard enough and have something to work with.

I guess what I want to say is that derbies are important and without them, I would never have run a field trial.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Lisa S. said:
It is an important stepping stone for people who are interested in getting into the FT game.
It can be and used to be but current entries do not support this.

A quick survey of this very weekend's 4 derbies listed on entry express shows less than 15% of the total derby entry(total 77 dogs) are being handled by an owner that does not also have an all-age dog entered at that trial. In counting "new comers" this percent maybe even lower depending on these o/hs past FT experience.

Tim
 

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The statistics were probably the same at the fall trials here.
Based on some of my experiences just as a member of the gallery at the upper levels, here--if that's all there was, I wouldn't bother.

If the sports going to live and you need new members, they will get the desire to move up from the lower stakes. It will be a trickle of people but once the desire is there...they're hooked.
 

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YES! Keep the Derby! I had a blast at the Derby. Went from the JH to the Derby and then began to wonder what all the White Coat stuff was about. Now I am pretty sure I am hooked! I am now hoping to become an official White Coat with a win in the Q! Or to become "official" do I need to place in the AM!

-Mary O
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Lisa,
I agree but the entry level lower stake is now the Qual especially the O/H Qual not the Derby. It's attracts the MHs who want another attainable goal.
So when a club is faced with a decision due to time and resources to drop a stake: What will be your choice?

Tim
 

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If a choice HAD to be made due to dwindling resources:
Drop the Derby. Keeping the Qual will attract those moving on from HT's and you can't keep a dog in Derby forever.

Regarding the ? in your initial post:
Most 18-24 month old dogs are taught much more than marking--would guess 99% have their handling skills :wink:
 

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Tim Carrion said:
Do we still need Derbies?
Is the average 18-24 month old trained only to mark?
Is this still the level which new FTers enter since the advent of HTs?

In this era of shinking grounds and work forces is this a significant stake?

Tim
Derbies are alot of fun. Yes we still need them.
They gave me the Field Trial bug.
 

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Well let me ask this -- I've got one dog that is my own , should be training for his MH title , but decided that he is more apt to run FT's , IF this black SOB wouldn't have jammed in his one and only derby , do you think I'd still be trying to play the FT game ???? . Basicaly yes I do think that derbies are important , at least for me cause I found another game to play ( even if I can't afford it ) :shock:
________
FORD BANTAM HISTORY
 

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The Derby stake is a fun stake when the judges aren't there to eliminate numbers, but to evaluate the dogs. I use to alway hope I wasn't dropped and would be kept competing if I committed no serious faults. Then I moved up to all-age stakes where I longer wondered if I was dropped but wondered if I would be called back.
 

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About a hunnerd years ago when I started, the common perception was that a dog should not be exposed to handling until it aged out of the Derby. "Handling will screw up their marking" was the belief. It was probably our methods of training that did the damage.

Didn't take long to realize that if a dog needed a correction in the field, it kinda, sorta, semi needed to be handled.

Derbies are fun if one has a hard going, honest, good marking dog. Whether the dog ever finishes one is beside the point. They are fun if you have the proper mindset, which is "Line em up, cut em loose, and sit back and watch."

But we must remember that Derby competion takes up a very short period in a dog's life and can produce problems that take forever to correct.

Now, I would much rather skip the Derby and work towards the AA stakes but that's just my mindset.

So I suppose I'm saying that the Derby is not necessary but can be a lot of fun with the right dog.

I think the Qualifying is much more apt to bring Hunt Test folk into FT's than the Derby. And the average Qualifying is much easier to complete in my opinion.

Jerry
 
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