Do you repeat often?
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This is probably one of those "it depends" things.
I repeat concepts, not actual marks or blinds.
Lisa
I repeat concepts, not actual marks or blinds.
Lisa
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Sure it is, at least for most trainers. But still, most who repeat as a routine part of their work have rationale for it, and often only repeat certain portions of their work, or under a set of specific circumstances. That's why I asked, If so, how do you judge what you repeat? How many times?, etc.Lisa Van Loo said:
Nearly all of us repeat during basics, don't we?
Evan
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I didn't vote 'cause what I do wasn't one of the choices.
I'll repeat a blind often if we fail it or have to many whistles. I'll often stop them near where we had a cast on the first running and give them a cast even if they are pretty much on line.
I repeat most marks I get a hunt on. I'll repeat the two in conflict as singles. If it was retired the first time (usually) then I have them retire adn I hold the dog on the line until the gunner is retired.
I'll repeat a blind often if we fail it or have to many whistles. I'll often stop them near where we had a cast on the first running and give them a cast even if they are pretty much on line.
I repeat most marks I get a hunt on. I'll repeat the two in conflict as singles. If it was retired the first time (usually) then I have them retire adn I hold the dog on the line until the gunner is retired.
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I "repeat" as a matter of course, failed marks with unique situations and/or conditions that are difficult to replicate.
I also often repeat,as stay out marks, failed retired marks with extremely challenging factors.
john
I also often repeat,as stay out marks, failed retired marks with extremely challenging factors.
john
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Yes, the basis of drills, patterns, etc. is repetition.
What I have noticed with Gopher is she falls very much into her comfort zone when she repeats. So much so, that she comes to expect the repeat. It's comfort food for the brain. Transition has been hell, at least until I figured out the root of her problem. She doesn't generalize well. It forced ME to find many, many different training areas. I can give her fresh marks and fresh blinds on a different property every day, which she needs, while still working on the same basic concept (crosswinds, for instance, or holding a sidehill).
Somewhere else, I saw the number 80%. You want 80% success on something before moving on to the next thing. Don't know where this number originated. The idea being if you work toward 100%, you will bore your dog into catatonia, while less than that, and the dog may not have the foundation it needs for the next step.
I use repeats when teaching multiples. Throw the memory bird and run as a single, then run it back as a multiple. Also use this when introducing a new concept (such as short-long, retiring guns, etc.). With Gopher, I find it has been well worth my while to push the boundaries of her comfort zone (or maybe I am expanding her comfort zone). So I repeat NOTHING. If she has trouble, I will either have the gunner help, or I will handle. The more I rock her world, the more confident she gets.
IMHO, dogs who naturally generalize their lessons well learn best with repeats. You lose nothing, and build the dog up. Dogs like Gopher, who does not generalize well, need to learn to handle what you throw at them, whenever and wherever. I started teaching fine-angle entries last week. Sending her to the same pile, but at longer distances and sharper angles. Just moved the pile to a different place each day, a different piece of property. So, we repeated within the lesson, but generalized across the week. NOT how most people do it, but with her, I truncate repeats and move things around, to avoid developing a pattern.
probably has nothing to do with your question. Just my musings. I finally figured out (just this morning) that her no-go problem in the field and her stay problem in obedience trials is the SAME problem. She makes me think, that is for sure. :shock:
Lisa
What I have noticed with Gopher is she falls very much into her comfort zone when she repeats. So much so, that she comes to expect the repeat. It's comfort food for the brain. Transition has been hell, at least until I figured out the root of her problem. She doesn't generalize well. It forced ME to find many, many different training areas. I can give her fresh marks and fresh blinds on a different property every day, which she needs, while still working on the same basic concept (crosswinds, for instance, or holding a sidehill).
Somewhere else, I saw the number 80%. You want 80% success on something before moving on to the next thing. Don't know where this number originated. The idea being if you work toward 100%, you will bore your dog into catatonia, while less than that, and the dog may not have the foundation it needs for the next step.
I use repeats when teaching multiples. Throw the memory bird and run as a single, then run it back as a multiple. Also use this when introducing a new concept (such as short-long, retiring guns, etc.). With Gopher, I find it has been well worth my while to push the boundaries of her comfort zone (or maybe I am expanding her comfort zone). So I repeat NOTHING. If she has trouble, I will either have the gunner help, or I will handle. The more I rock her world, the more confident she gets.
IMHO, dogs who naturally generalize their lessons well learn best with repeats. You lose nothing, and build the dog up. Dogs like Gopher, who does not generalize well, need to learn to handle what you throw at them, whenever and wherever. I started teaching fine-angle entries last week. Sending her to the same pile, but at longer distances and sharper angles. Just moved the pile to a different place each day, a different piece of property. So, we repeated within the lesson, but generalized across the week. NOT how most people do it, but with her, I truncate repeats and move things around, to avoid developing a pattern.
probably has nothing to do with your question. Just my musings. I finally figured out (just this morning) that her no-go problem in the field and her stay problem in obedience trials is the SAME problem. She makes me think, that is for sure. :shock:
Lisa
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I repeat cheating marks if the dog cheated. I sometimes repeat marks where the dog gave into factors and had to be helped or handled. I don't repeat marks where a hunt occured.
I have found that some of the dogs, as Lisa stated, come to rely on the repeats instead of working hard for themselves. My approach is to throw difficult marks as singles and teach the concept or introduce the factors in this manner. The singles allow the dogs to focus directly on the mark at hand without the memory issue. When I want to increase the difficulty I usually have a difficult mark thrown as a memory in a double situation.
All this is straight from Lardy and it seems to work well for him...why would I deviate?
I have found that some of the dogs, as Lisa stated, come to rely on the repeats instead of working hard for themselves. My approach is to throw difficult marks as singles and teach the concept or introduce the factors in this manner. The singles allow the dogs to focus directly on the mark at hand without the memory issue. When I want to increase the difficulty I usually have a difficult mark thrown as a memory in a double situation.
All this is straight from Lardy and it seems to work well for him...why would I deviate?
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Evan, I too will repeat cheaty marks or concepts being taught. If the dawg hunts the AOL that's all I need to see, no repeat.
It's those the need BB help or are handled that I repeat the mark.
Throw a lot of singles to get the idea across and I too use the repeat mark in a double mark situation.
It's those the need BB help or are handled that I repeat the mark.
Throw a lot of singles to get the idea across and I too use the repeat mark in a double mark situation.
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Repeating marks for me is a matter of:Why,how and/or where did this dog have a problem? If the dog simply didn't mark, as they sometimes do, I would not repeat.
Certain terrains IMHO could merit a repeat as single. Whereas concepts may require a repeat of the entire multiple. In both of these situation I'm not improving the dog's marking ability but only trying to teach him/her how to successfully push thru this specific idea.
Blinds I often repeat when first introducing "cold blinds". IMHO at this stage it can help build confidence/drive in lining and casting. Experienced dogs will only repeat if there where some real big problems that required blood,sweat and tears form both of us.
Tim
Certain terrains IMHO could merit a repeat as single. Whereas concepts may require a repeat of the entire multiple. In both of these situation I'm not improving the dog's marking ability but only trying to teach him/her how to successfully push thru this specific idea.
Blinds I often repeat when first introducing "cold blinds". IMHO at this stage it can help build confidence/drive in lining and casting. Experienced dogs will only repeat if there where some real big problems that required blood,sweat and tears form both of us.
Tim
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I took the liberty to add an option to the poll, so I could vote accurately. 
Actually I'm not sure it jives with your assertive question of "frequently in daily training." To that, I would say rare.
Actually I'm not sure it jives with your assertive question of "frequently in daily training." To that, I would say rare.
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I have been told not to re-run cold blinds as it is a way to sap the momentum out of a young dog, but I must admit that I will re-run some cold blinds when she blows off my line bad . This to me is a way of letting her know that what I say goes and because she is a smart dog she knows what she has done wrong and will take my line the next time. I would personally rather re-run a good running line than "stick handle across the field. In my way of thinking relying on the handling aspect undermines the need for strong initial lines. I just love watching my dog, or anyones dog for that matter lining a blind, especially in an event .
. This to me is a way of letting her know that what I say goes and because she is a smart dog she knows what she has done wrong and will take my line the next time. I would personally rather re-run a good running line than "stick handle across the field. In my way of thinking relying on the handling aspect undermines the need for strong initial lines. I just love watching my dog, or anyones dog for that matter lining a blind, especially in an event .
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I will repeat both blinds and marks but, 'almost' never do I go right back to that blind or mark that the dog failed.
For instance in a multiple blind situation the dog received a correction on the second or third blind I will repeat the first blind that went well (if it didn't go well I wouldn't move to the second or third blind!) which usually fosters a good attitude. Then we will repeat the 'failed' blind to see if the dog learned anything from the first attempt, usually things go much better. Did they really learn the concept? I'm not convinced of that, but they had success and are 'put up' on a positive note! If the first blind was bad I will hand throw a bumper to the left and pick it up and hand throw a bumper to the right and pick it up then repeat the failed blind.
Same idea on marks, for instance, in a triple the dog does a good job on 2 birds but fails the 3rd bird (and maybe received a correction) I will try to analyze the correlation between the marks and repeat the succesful mark in the correlation as a single then repeat the failed mark as a single. Usually things go better. Did they really learn the concept? I'm not convinced of that, but they had success and are 'put up' on a positive note!
I think you have to analyze over time if the dog is learning that concept, most dogs don't learn certain concepts as easy as other concepts. For the most part I'm talking about advanced training concepts.
On the other hand, when it comes to 'cheating singles' I will back up from the pond and throw the bird and handle and correct as needed. Then the same thrower will throw in the opposite direction (lets say away form the pond) and pick that up as a single then I will throw the cheater again as a single (if the dog failed the first time) or, if the dog succesfully completed the cheater the first time, I will hand throw a bumper to add memory time to the cheater, when the dog successfully completes this you know the dog is learning the concept.
I don't like to go right back to the same spot due to the dog being a 'creature of habit' and going back to the same spot all the time in Trials, Tests, and in hunting can spell disaster! In other words, go here, go there, go somewhere else!
For instance in a multiple blind situation the dog received a correction on the second or third blind I will repeat the first blind that went well (if it didn't go well I wouldn't move to the second or third blind!) which usually fosters a good attitude. Then we will repeat the 'failed' blind to see if the dog learned anything from the first attempt, usually things go much better. Did they really learn the concept? I'm not convinced of that, but they had success and are 'put up' on a positive note! If the first blind was bad I will hand throw a bumper to the left and pick it up and hand throw a bumper to the right and pick it up then repeat the failed blind.
Same idea on marks, for instance, in a triple the dog does a good job on 2 birds but fails the 3rd bird (and maybe received a correction) I will try to analyze the correlation between the marks and repeat the succesful mark in the correlation as a single then repeat the failed mark as a single. Usually things go better. Did they really learn the concept? I'm not convinced of that, but they had success and are 'put up' on a positive note!
I think you have to analyze over time if the dog is learning that concept, most dogs don't learn certain concepts as easy as other concepts. For the most part I'm talking about advanced training concepts.
On the other hand, when it comes to 'cheating singles' I will back up from the pond and throw the bird and handle and correct as needed. Then the same thrower will throw in the opposite direction (lets say away form the pond) and pick that up as a single then I will throw the cheater again as a single (if the dog failed the first time) or, if the dog succesfully completed the cheater the first time, I will hand throw a bumper to add memory time to the cheater, when the dog successfully completes this you know the dog is learning the concept.
I don't like to go right back to the same spot due to the dog being a 'creature of habit' and going back to the same spot all the time in Trials, Tests, and in hunting can spell disaster! In other words, go here, go there, go somewhere else!
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I do not repeat marks except when I want to change what I am teaching to a "drill" type situation. I think it depends on what we are trying to teach.
In Australia we have what is called a double rise. The dogs are expected to go back to an area of fall (mark) to pick up a blind (but this is judged as a ie mark!!!!). I do not teach double rises to my dogs until they are handling well and all other lessons are ingrained. This particular test is a real bug bear of mine. Strangely after being taught to return to the same area, I have found that my dogs especially my younger ones with my US knowledge (LOL) have never returned (yet) to an old fall. My voice cue on a double rise is "bacon and eggs".
In Australia we have what is called a double rise. The dogs are expected to go back to an area of fall (mark) to pick up a blind (but this is judged as a ie mark!!!!). I do not teach double rises to my dogs until they are handling well and all other lessons are ingrained. This particular test is a real bug bear of mine. Strangely after being taught to return to the same area, I have found that my dogs especially my younger ones with my US knowledge (LOL) have never returned (yet) to an old fall. My voice cue on a double rise is "bacon and eggs".
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Ditto to what Tim C. said except for the blind thing.
Repeat marks only in relation to a "marking drill" otherwise unless they really "CF" it , I don't repeat. Young dogs learning multiples is another story.
Blinds I never repeat. I teach blind concepts in a drill format. I always run 2 if not 3 blinds everyday on the same concept that we are working on that day.
Evan, I love your threads!!!!!!
Angie
Repeat marks only in relation to a "marking drill" otherwise unless they really "CF" it , I don't repeat. Young dogs learning multiples is another story.
Blinds I never repeat. I teach blind concepts in a drill format. I always run 2 if not 3 blinds everyday on the same concept that we are working on that day.
Evan, I love your threads!!!!!!
Angie
Only repeat when teaching concepts then if I have a problem repeat the set up in a different area. This is because we often have multiple marks where the fall of the bird and hence the dog is out of sight and can easily switch. The judge sometimes will tell you that a given bird has its leg cut off so if the dog brings that back instead of the one the judge has specified you are out :roll: have only been training like this since my exposure to this forum and I now have a dog that does not think of switching. So thanks to all of you:lol:
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For the record, me too! We'll get to why very soon.Angie B said:
I confess, the hardest part of posting something like this is shutting up and waiting for all the great replies! I want to engage each response as I read them because each brings a fresh perspective in some pertinent area of the discussion.
I posted this poll on three forums, and it?s been interesting to see the responses, not only in rationale and perspective, but also in raw numbers. I thought you might enjoy seeing those numbers to date.
On Multiple Marks? 6
On Just Key, or Missed Marks? 33
Blinds? 23
Never or Rarely Repeat? 26
For "train wrecks", and on occasional contrary/school blind? 2
In 90 votes, and a similar number of replies (total for the three boards), only one person (an experienced trainer) responded by asking for a ?Definition of repeating?? I anticipated that it might go something like this, but not to this extent.
?Repeat? doesn?t conjure up the same image to each trainer who reads it, does it? It is actually a broad, and somewhat relative term. Even broader is the scope of rationale that the various trainers accept for its use. But let?s look at what we?re discussing.
If a dog is deemed to have failed a mark ? to the extent that he has gotten little or no benefit from running it ? a trainer may reasonably want to repeat it, as long as they believe the repeat will have merit worthy of the risks. We haven?t heard much about the risks yet.
Looking strictly at the term ?repeating a mark?, in the context of the example above (a pretty typical one, I think), different trainers may have a different vision of what is about to happen. It may be that the trainer will simply have the failed mark re-thrown and run it as a single. That may have value.
It may be, in the same circumstance, that a different trainer would have the failed mark re-thrown, and then toss a bird or bumper off to one side in order to make the repeated mark a memory bird ? thereby giving a bit more depth to the lesson.
It may also be that another trainer, in that same situation, would opt to re-throw the entire set up because they feel that the other marks, even though the dog had succeeded at them, are what caused the failure of the key (or failed) mark.
This represents just a handful of approaches to the same situation, and they are distinct from each other. Another distinction, as seen in the responses, is that some people would do some version of a repeat virtually every time there is such a failure, while others would elect to go and set up something similar and run it again there ? repeating the principles and concepts, rather than repeating the same marks. Of course, this is also repeating.
When someone asks if you repeat, what image comes most quickly to mind?
Evan
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We got rid of the kids.
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And I may be way off base here also Evan, but it makes a huge difference to me at what age the dog is and what stage of the training program it is in.
The young dogs get lots of 'repeats' to the same AOF for confidence building if nothing else. As they age, and have been switch proofed, we seldom have them return to an old fall, unless we are doing the concept delayed, and show them the 'money' bird as a single, prior to including it in the multiple mark scenario.
In blind training, once a concept has been taught, it's seldom advantageous to repeat at the same location. ie A channel blind once decheated etc., and learned by the dog at a given location, is now another pattern field I think. Maybe these need to be revisited on occasion when the dog needs it's confidence built up for some reason. But the same concept at different locations is a wiser use of training time.
So much for my $.02. I'm looking forward to the real answer, and thanks for your enlightenment on the topic.
UB
The young dogs get lots of 'repeats' to the same AOF for confidence building if nothing else. As they age, and have been switch proofed, we seldom have them return to an old fall, unless we are doing the concept delayed, and show them the 'money' bird as a single, prior to including it in the multiple mark scenario.
In blind training, once a concept has been taught, it's seldom advantageous to repeat at the same location. ie A channel blind once decheated etc., and learned by the dog at a given location, is now another pattern field I think. Maybe these need to be revisited on occasion when the dog needs it's confidence built up for some reason. But the same concept at different locations is a wiser use of training time.
So much for my $.02. I'm looking forward to the real answer, and thanks for your enlightenment on the topic.
UB
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Wise words!!
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