[K G]

Copied from the "sportsmanship" thread....

Jerry Harris wrote:

A handler at a Port Arthur Qual had SMACKED the first two marks and the dog was Beating Feet straight to the middle retired. Halfway there, a whistle was blown at the Open, just 300-400 yards upwind of the Qual. The dog sat, the handler just said "Back", no arm signals. The dog immediately turned and continued on a straight line to the bird. About 10-15 yards before reaching the bird, the dog snatched up a BUMPER and returned. The dog was dropped, the Handler never said a word.

This brought to mind a question: does the dog deserve a rerun?

Please follow your vote with a description of your position on the question. I suggest this as many folks use RTF to LEARN why one makes the decisions they do when they judge. Whether you vote YES or NO, explaining your position will help future (and perhaps current) judges understand the rationale behind the decisions made.

Personally, I don't know how someone could NOT give the dog the rerun, since a training aid left laying in the field presents a HUGE point of unfairness. The rulebook allows judges this option. To ME, not giving the dog the rerun goes against the intent of presenting an equal test to each dog.

Now, some would say "well, the bumper was there for the other dogs that ran before the one that picked it up." Yes, it was....and had any of them picked it up, it would have been equally unfair. If that is the rationale used, then the bumper should be placed back in the field for every subsequent dog to run so that they encounter the same test as every previous dog that had run.

Two wrongs don't make a right.....they make a DISASTER, especially in this case.

Give the dog a rerun at the end and keep the bumper out of the field.

keith griffith

 

[Ted Hilfiker]

Keith...

It depends (LVL '03)......

We don't know why the dog was dropped.... a pop or picking up the bumper.

....if the whistle was as obvious as Jerry described, go with the rerun.
....if there was any question between the two judges regarding the above caveat, go with the rerun.
....if both judges agree it was a pop, bad luck, but you're gone.

....regarding the bumper...from Jerry's description, the mark was situated in a cross-wind from the line to it and the bumper was right on the line. At ten or fifteen yards, there would likely be no scent cone to the bird. Therefore, I believe the bumper would be undue interference and dog deserves a rerun.

I voted for the rerun, but....

I think a case could also be made that the dog pass, because he completed the mark with apparently excellent progress.

Ted

 

[Kenneth Niles Bora]

Yes, page 27 in the 2005 field trial rules, in procedures chapter 14.-
" If there is an occurrence which makes for a relatively unfair test for a dog, the judges shall exercise their discretion in determining how to form a judgment of the quality of the work of the dog in the series notwithstanding the unfairness. In forming such a judgment the judges may decide that it is necessary or unnecessary to re-run the dog. If they decide the latter, they may waive delivery to hand of the mark or blind in which the unfairness occurred. If they decide the former the dog shall be picked up immediately and tested on a new set of birds, if practicable, after waiting behind the line until several other dogs have been tested."

so in my opinion the combination of the whistle sit from a whistle from the other stake combined with the bumper left in the field equal an unfair occurrence in the testing of that dog. On a personal note, I have seen a re-run given at our field trial in Stowe, VT. because the working dog found and brought back a bumper. The bumper had been marked PR and everyone in the gallery knew whose bumper it was.
Ken Bora

 

[meleagris]

I believe 2 things occurred which were "relatively unfair". The first was the whistle and the second was the bumper.

In my mind the whistle is the bigger problem of the two and this is why. Why do we blow a whistle.....It's almost always to communicate to the dog that it is doing the wrong thing and a change is necessary. In this account, it appears the dog had a good idea where the bird was and was headed to the fall area. A whistle leaves the dog (in my mind) with some indecision about his mark. That indecision may have led him to retrieve the first object he came across. Who knows if the dog would have grabbed the bumper if it was not handled.

Just my take...

John
________
Public gay

 

[john fallon]

The dog sat, the handler just said "Back", no arm signals.

This is considered a problem by some judges.

The "I" word regards
john

 

[Bente]

The dog sat, the handler just said "Back", no arm signals.

This is considered a problem by some judges.

The "I" word regards
john

HUH????


bp

 

[Emily Faith]

The dog deserved a rerun, particularly on the issue of the whistle. Ideally, the judge would tell the handler to call the dog in as soon as it sat, before the bird was retrieved. As a matter of fact, a very similar situation happened to me, running Eve at the Mid. Tenn trial in the Am. The whistles in the Open water blind became very loud (As well as the "No, Hell!"s) after a change of the wind. The wonderful Am judges gave us a rerun. We also (I was a marshall) started alternating running of dogs with the Open, to avoid any further problem. While the Open dog was swimming back, we'd run one or two dogs at the Am.

On the bumper issue, I would have just judged it as though the dog picked up the bird, if that was all that happened and no interference from the other stake. Assuming it was relatively close to the fall, as described.

 

[Jerry]

The handler was me. The dog was running as fast as he could when he abruptly stopped. Wasn't slowing down, acting confused or anything else of that nature.

Strangely enough, I had just posted a few DAYS earlier that I had never given a "No Hands" back. It seemed appropriate in this situation because it didn't matter which way he turned if he knew where he was going. And he obviously knew where he was going.

Both Judges are friends and both said they didn't hear the whistle but about 8 other people, including myself, heard it. They told me they dropped him for the "Pop".

This was the first series of a Qual and a pop is NOT a serious fault. I think to this day the dog should have either been carried as is, or given a re-run due to the bumper.

Respectfully regards,

Jerry

 

[Bob Gutermuth]

No way this dog gets dropped. The whistle from the open was an unfairness under the rule quoted by Ken. The presence of the bumper was an addtional unfairness. For the benefit of the dog(so as not to have him go hunt for another bumper if nothing else) and for the sake of fairness, I would score the dogs work (discounting the whistle stop and the bumper) and give it credit for the retrieve.

 

[Misty Marsh]

I think that it has already been said pretty well, this dog definatly deserved a re-run and I'd be pretty upset when this is so "in your face" bad!

 

[EdA]

the dog deserves a rerun even though Jerry was the handler :wink:

he should be rerun as the last dog

as a handler he should not attempt to pickup the birds in a different order than he picked them up the first time

he should be scored to the point of interference (the whistle from the other stake) on his initial run and scored from that point on his rerun

as a judge I would never trust my own hearing in such an instance since I frequently do not hear distant whistles, if my co-judge did not hear it either I would assume his/her hearing was as poor as mine and I would ask the marshall

 

[Ted Hilfiker]

Jerry and K.G....

This thread is getting more interesting by the minute.

Given Jerry's new info, what were his options?

With the bumper now out of play, would you....

not give the back, ask the judges if they heard the whistle and ask for the re-run right there with the dog sitting in the field?

give the "back" and take your chances? (in this case Jerry paid for it!)

talk to judges as soon as the dog returned with the uh...uh...bird

ask the FTC to review immediately after you put the dog up to see if others heard the errant whistle......realizing this may lose you a friend or two?

On the other issue, I don't have an AKC rule book handy.....is a "pop" in the Qual a disqualifying fault? and would a judge see it differently in the third or fourth series?

So many questions, such a short Spring Break regards,

Ted

 

[FOM]

If I were judging and based on te info provided I would allow a re-run.

I would allow the re-run ue to the fact the dog brought back a bumper and was on its way to the AOF so it wasn't like it found a bumper out in the back 40.

As for the "pop" if I heard the whistle then I'd also be inclined to re-run the dog. If I did not hear the whistle I'd talk to my co-judge and see what they heard, if neither of us heard the whistle then I'd make note of it but do not feel there is a need to drop the dog.

That's just me.

FOM

 

[Julie R.]

I'll qualify my answer by saying I'm not a judge and my FT experience is limited to 3 derbies, but I think either the whistle interference OR the presence of the bumper would be enough for the dog to get a re-run.

I witnessed a similar thing happen to a friend in a derby. His dog was definitely in the money through the first 3 series and had nailed the go bird in the last series. Dogs ran a good distance, maybe 150 yards, on land before entering the water for this series. Just as this dog got to the water's edge on the way to the last bird, a green monster from the open carried loud and clear and the dog, having recently gone through extensive de-cheating, obediently turned and sat at water's edge (Of course, you can't handle in a derby!). Several of us watching were sitting on the other side of the pond closer to the open. I'm not sure the judges could hear the open whistles, but those of us watching and the dog sure did. The judge told the handler to pick the dog up. This was also a fairly small derby, so there was no problem with time.

In other trials I've watched, both HTs and FTs, if there is a stray bumper or bird in the field the dog has picked up, it's always been given a re-run. I think the benefit of the doubt should be given to the dog!

 

[EdA]

is a "pop" in the Qual a disqualifying fault?

a pop on a mark is "stopping the hunt", a serious fault in any stake and one which a dog may be dropped for but at least should be severely penalized for

but in this particular case it was not a pop, merely answering a whistle from another stake

as far as the bumper is concerned (without the pop) you would have the option of giving credit for the mark as Emily suggested or rerunning and judging from the point of unfairness (finding the bumper)

 

[3 dog knight]

Well, no matter what you all decide, I'd definetly be keeping that bumper.

3DK

 

[Jerry]

Well, no matter what you all decide, I'd definetly be keeping that bumper.

3DK

I call it my $55 bumper!!!!!!

Jerry

 

[Jerry]

is a "pop" in the Qual a disqualifying fault?

a pop on a mark is "stopping the hunt", a serious fault in any stake and one which a dog may be dropped for but at least should be severely penalized for

but in this particular case it was not a pop, merely answering a whistle from another stake

as far as the bumper is concerned (without the pop) you would have the option of giving credit for the mark as Emily suggested or rerunning and judging from the point of unfairness (finding the bumper)

Ed, I beg to differ with you. On page 55 of my rulebook it is listed as a Moderate fault. He didn't "stop a hunt", he was about halfway to the fall.

Jerry

 

[Bill Watson]

Looking at it from a little different view. Did the judges carefully walk out all the lines, looking for hazards to the dogs, and was the fellow with the initialed bumper running a dog in this trial and had he been training on the grounds? Just being a little picky.

I would have passed the dog, even if it was run by Jerry. A judge should give every consideration to the dog (I once ran under two deaf judges and was about to pick my dog up after 5 whistle refusels, when one of the judges said " your dog looks ok to me". I continued and passed, much to my embarasement and took my ribbon so as not to get sighted for bad sportsmanship) Ain't life fun? Bill
________
ACETONA live

 

[Ted Hilfiker]

Let's see.....

Time spent at RTF at $0.05 an hour = $658.05

Time spent thinking I'll just go check RTF for a minute at $0.05 an hour = $478.05

Exchanges like this:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3 dog knight wrote:
Well, no matter what you all decide, I'd definetly be keeping that bumper.

3DK


I call it my $55 bumper!!!!!!

Priceless.

Ted