[Shayne Mehringer]

Sorry, had to redo it.... Yall can kiss my butt about the last one, i was tryin to edit it and the forum was hanging up.

Did dog A fade with the wind, but know where it was the whole time? Was he clueless until he winded it? Did dog B put out a lot of effort to go in the wrong direction because he didn't know where it was? Or was he trying to fight the factors and over compensated. Or is there any difference in their work at all? You be the judge!

Shayne

 

[FOM]

Yea, yea, sure, sure....

FOM

 

[john fallon]

The tone of at least one posting on the on the other thread on this matter was that none of this Superfluous BS matters :roll: :lol: :wink:
Modify the poll to include a not enough information to vote category
john- still wondering about a dog that fights hard to get to the wrong place

 

[Shayne Mehringer]

The tone of at least one posting on the on the other thread on this matter was that none of this Superfluous BS matters :roll: :lol: :wink:
Modify the poll to include a not enough information to vote category
john- still wondering about a dog that fights hard to get to the wrong place

There's plenty info to vote. Everything else is equal. People can pick tie if they don't think going with the wind one way or the other is a factor.

Shayne

 

[Ted Shih]

The tone of at least one posting on the on the other thread on this matter was that none of this Superfluous BS matters

john- still wondering about a dog that fights hard to get to the wrong place

Dear John

Whose tone, pray tell, do you refer to in your post? And, do you, pray tell, find that tone objectionable? If so, please clarify.

As for me, there is nothing in the information provided to indicate any reason to prefer one dog's work over another's.

Nor does the post provide sufficient information to conclude that one dog fought the factors - whatever that means - or that another dog did not fight the factors

For that matter, what does "fighting the factors" mean - and why - if at all - should it make any difference to how we judge the dogs?

Finally, John

You wrote

still wondering about a dog that fights hard to get to the wrong place

As a judge, I care less about the fight, I care more about the destination.

Bad destination, bad mark.

 

[Tim Carrion]

If I'm judging both dog's pinned the mark and are judged the same.
My co-judge and I are the ones to be penalized for placing a mark with a 100 ft wide corridor to the bird that would allow to get there without a problem. :roll:

Tim

 

[john fallon]

For that matter, what does "fighting the factors" mean - and why - if at all - should it make any difference to how we judge the dogs?

Not fighting the factors on a well placer AA mark Should cause the dog to fall into one of the pitfalls of the test and thereby be more likely to net a Failure or a poor score on the Mark
If you really need to know about factors and their relationship to solid testing Marks :roll:
Do a search :!: :wink:
Quote:

still wondering about a dog that fights hard to get to the wrong place

As a judge, I care less about the fight, I care more about the destination.

Bad destination, bad mark.

Talk about a bad destination!
A dog that is 45/50 ft off the line to the bird when it reaches a point in the field that is as deep as the bird has hardly Pinned the bird under any scenario as to what happened next

john

 

[Shayne Mehringer]

Talk about a bad destination!
A dog that is 45/50 ft off the line to the bird when it reaches a point in the field that is as deep as the bird has hardly Pinned the bird under any scenario as to what happened next

john

Taking and carrying a line that results in being 45ft from the mark at 300 yards is a pretty damn good line.

Shayne

 

[john fallon]

As Tim said,"My co-judge and I are the ones to be penalized for placing a mark with a 100 ft wide corridor to the bird that would allow to get there without a problem."


A 90/100 ft fairway to an AA mark is ,shall we say, Lenient :wink:
john

 

[Ted Shih]

John wrote

Not fighting the factors on a well placer AA mark Should cause the dog to fall into one of the pitfalls of the test and thereby be more likely to net a Failure or a poor score on the Mark

Agreed. A tough mark is difficult to reach. So why do you think that it is important to score how the dog navigates the factors on the way to the bird.

If you really need to know about factors and their relationship to solid testing Marks Do a search

Well, John I am not interested in what the world may think. I am interested in knowing what you consider to be factors and why they are important. If you don't want to answer, don't.

Talk about a bad destination! A dog that is 45/50 ft off the line to the bird when it reaches a point in the field that is as deep as the bird

John, why the fixation on the LINE?

has hardly Pinned the bird under any scenario as to what happened next

John, perhaps you really feel that way. I do not.

I have run plenty of tests where any competitor would do cartwheels if their dog got within 15 yards of the bird, made a hard turn and got the bird. Perhaps you call that a hunt, I do not.

 

[Ken Guthrie]

Come on boys.......it's Christmas. :lol:

 

[john fallon]

So why do you think that it is important to score how the dog navigates the factors on the way to the bird.

All else being equal.
When you are sitting in the truck Talking it over with your co-Judge trying to decide on a placement I think it Could factor in.
Cause it should be part of the AA package as it is a function of Perseverance and Style.

John, why the fixation on the LINE?

For the most part.
"The Dog With The Straightest Lines Win"
Quote:

has hardly Pinned the bird under any scenario as to what happened next

John, perhaps you really feel that way. I do not.

I think that this is just a matter of semantics
Pinned Smacked Front Footed are all synonyms for going directly to the bird via a straight line in my FT vernacular

I have run plenty of tests where any competitor would do cartwheels if their dog got within 15 yards of the bird, made a hard turn and got the bird.

When judging. Have you Ever dropped a dog that has done so?

To this point the dog that Fought the factors has garnered 11 votes outright and the one thet caved in to the factors has only one vote
john

 

[paul young]

i have to agree with Shayne and Ted. reaching the aof at ft distances within 15 yards of the bird may not win, if others do better.........but it's a damn fine job by thre dog , just the same. i don't see how you would ELIMINATE this dog from further competition based on this alone.-paul

 

[Ted Shih]

When you are sitting in the truck Talking it over with your co-Judge trying to decide on a placement I think it Could factor in.
Cause it should be part of the AA package as it is a function of Perseverance and Style.

The difference in the scenario posed is so slight that I could not differentiate one dog from another. One went left. One went right.
How is anyone to know whether a dog fought your "factors" or not?

For the most part. "The Dog With The Straightest Lines Win"

That is because typically the dogs with the straight lines get to the area of the fall. That is why the standard in training is run straight and true.

However, in competition, we judge marks, not lines.

Pinned Smacked Front Footed are all synonyms for going directly to the bird via a straight line in my FT vernacular

In my opinion, the dog went directly to the bird. A straight line is not necessary for a good mark.

I have run plenty of tests where any competitor would do cartwheels if their dog got within 15 yards of the bird, made a hard turn and got the bird.

When judging. Have you Ever dropped a dog that has done so?

NO

I have not.

 

[Pete Marcellus]

Perhaps the field sloped to the left slightly and dog B gave in to the slope.

Judge what you see, not what you think.

As I see it, they are equal regardless.

Pete

 

[john fallon]

At what point are the Marks no longer equal?
Does one of the dogs have to end up 5yds closer before it turns, to have a better Mark or will 1yd do :?: :?
No! I say that you must judge the whole package. Suppose one dog walks? :wink:
john

 

[Lisa Van Loo]

Judge the mark, not the line to the mark.

They are equal.

Next series!

Lisa

 

[Ted Shih]

It has been really cold here and so rather than training today, I sat inside and did some reading.

In Training Retrievers for Field Trials, Hunt Tests, and Hunting
by Bill Hillman - a pretty interesting book, there is a section entitled

Judging ... Behind the Gunners ... Danny Farmer

Danny is quoted as saying

In the major stakes, this is very important to some people, but to me it's totally unimportant. The important thing is whether the dog knew where the bird was, not whether he went behind the gunner to get it. I think this fallacy comes from the derby - where there are predominantly less knowledgeable judges and one of the only things they can judge on is whether they go behind the gun or not.

 

[john fallon]

While Danny Farmers point with regard to Derby Judging of the Hooked Gun is well taken. I feel confident that he would agree, that the that hooking the gun is a poor mark"Thing" is often as much a function of less than enough time to do an adequate job of testing, than that of less knowledgeable judges.
And that.......
In FT's in general "The Dogs With the Straigest Lines Win"
John

 

[Ted Shih]

While Danny Farmers point with regard to Derby Judging of the Hooked Gun is well taken. I feel confident that he would agree, that the that hooking the gun is a poor mark"Thing" is often as much a function of less than enough time to do an adequate job of testing, than that of less knowledgeable judges.
And that....... In FT's in general "The Dogs With the Straigest Lines Win"
John

I will let Mr Farmer and Mr Patopea answer you directly. Again from Training Retrievers for Field Trials, Hunt Tests, and Hunting by Bill Hillman (and as before, recited in full)

Wrong Side of the Guns .... Danny Farmer

Why is it that the most knowledgeable people in retriever training don't think it's a big deal to behind the guns on a mark, and the least knowledgeable people think that if a dog goes behind the guns he's failed the test?

Wrong Side of the Guns ... Jerry Patopea

I think that this is one of the most talked about subjects in field trials, and I don't know why. Who cares if he goes behind a gun as long as he knows where the bird is and goes to it? Getting the bird without handling or hunting some other area is the key ... not whether he went on one side of the gun or the other.