[oco2530]

I spent yesterday searching on RTF for answers to my situation but thought I would post something to gain any new insight.

I have a 4 year old black lab male that has developed a freezing problem. It started last fall when we were running a master test and he slammed the series. He came back to the line and would not give up the bird. I spent the next 6 mouths doing drills and running singles to correct the issue. We taught him to back off of bumper, remote drop, and I forced on out. I also changed my mechanics at the line. I had a tendency to grab for the bird instead of him giving it to me. I have also incorporated giving him a tennis ball of of the line as a reward.

This past weekend the the problem showed up again. He did well the first series and slammed the second series. On the last bird before a water bird he came back to the line with this crazy look in his eye. He also would not sit. So I rehealed him and got him to sit. When I went to reach for the bird he turned his head to opposite way and would not give up the bird. I then lined him up for the blind and he still would not give the bird up. So my test was ended early once again.

We discussed the incident at dinner and on the way home the next day. First I am going to try to be less happy on the line. I have a tendency to clap a couple of times when he does well so I will hold that emotion till I get him back to the trailer. Two.. we have the idea to skin and dry a duck and fit it around a doken so it is more life like. We would then insert wire threw the body so when he bites down it kinda hurts. He is also done running tests for a long time.

Any other thought?

Thanks


Mike

 

[gdgnyc]

I am curious---what happens when you hunt your dog? Also, I'm not sure that you will get what you want with wiring up a Dokken.

 

[tpaschal30]

I spent yesterday searching on RTF for answers to my situation but thought I would post something to gain any new insight.

I have a 4 year old black lab male that has developed a freezing problem. It started last fall when we were running a master test and he slammed the series. He came back to the line and would not give up the bird. I spent the next 6 mouths doing drills and running singles to correct the issue. We taught him to back off of bumper, remote drop, and I forced on out. I also changed my mechanics at the line. I had a tendency to grab for the bird instead of him giving it to me. I have also incorporated giving him a tennis ball of of the line as a reward.

This past weekend the the problem showed up again. He did well the first series and slammed the second series. On the last bird before a water bird he came back to the line with this crazy look in his eye. He also would not sit. So I rehealed him and got him to sit. When I went to reach for the bird he turned his head to opposite way and would not give up the bird. I then lined him up for the blind and he still would not give the bird up. So my test was ended early once again.

We discussed the incident at dinner and on the way home the next day. First I am going to try to be less happy on the line. I have a tendency to clap a couple of times when he does well so I will hold that emotion till I get him back to the trailer. Two.. we have the idea to skin and dry a duck and fit it around a doken so it is more life like. We would then insert wire threw the body so when he bites down it kinda hurts. He is also done running tests for a long time.

Any other thought?

Thanks


Mike

It started with my BLM about the same age. From what I have learned it happens to some of the real birdy dogs. Remote drop has helped us, but it will always be a work in progress for us. Here is a link that might help.

http://www.kwicklabs.com/RemoteDrop.htm

 

[Julie R.]

Hoping others will chime in....I had this happen last month; Chesapeake female, 2nd master test and she was reluctant to give up birds in the first series. First bird, slight reluctance, 2nd, noticeable by both me & judges; last bird...well let's just say I had to pick her up and leash her before she'd give it up. I got varied advice and of course she doesn't do this in training; she'd never been rough on birds or reluctant to give them up. The only time she'd ever been reluctant to release was on happy bumpers, so we discontinued those months ago. But she had been slow to come to heel and sit so we've been working on much higher standards on her obedience, both in training and in general. I also put her on the table and did some stick fetch with her to speed up her return/sit with birds. So far so good, she didn't do it this wkd. double staked in both senior and master, but on her last series she took her time coming to heel and sitting. I have been told this can be tough to fix, especially for dogs that do not freeze in training.

 

[Zman1001]

I would be very hesitant to put wire inside the skinned duck / dokken for safety issues. I know you are trying to create a painful situation, but look at it the other way.

I have heard a few Labs who have picked up a dove, and when they did crunch down a little hard, the bones of the dove broke and pierced the top lining of the dogs mouth, which then got infected and caused more problems. Point is, by putting wire in, you could be creating the same issue, and ultimately injure you dog seriously.

Just a thought.

Another suggestion for you to try in training (which ultimately will work at a test). Use your outside foot to create pressure when taking the bird in training. If you do this as a conditioned response, then, when at a test, they will never know if it will happen or not, and when they see you step up with your outside foot, they will not know if the pressure is coming, and should release the bird. just another thought

 

[Sue Kiefer]

Seek Professional help.
Maybe you are missing something that a Pro. may see.
Sue

 

[Pete]

Another suggestion for you to try in training (which ultimately will work at a test). Use your outside foot to create pressure when taking the bird in training. If you do this as a conditioned response, then, when at a test, they will never know if it will happen or not, and when they see you step up with your outside foot, they will not know if the pressure is coming, and should release the bird. just another thought

Very good
Can you fill us in on the entire process,,,How have you achieved pressure with your outside foot? What is the regularity of your conditioned response? Is the actual pressure visible to the dog.? And do you use a pre-posture or motion conditioning to lighten the trance like stuper that some dogs drift into.
Thanks in advance

Pete

 

[Swampbilly]

I like the remote DROP idea, and can see where it would calm a dog down.
I've never tried it however, and have a different approach to the problem.

Could be an opportrunity for me to learn something here..

I have a question:
After teaching the dog to Remote DROP, will that same dog that was previously freezing, or being a little sticky with birds remotely DROP at a HT/FT afterwards ?

 

[FOM]

I'd also recommend to stop running tests, this is what triggers the behavior and you can not correct for it and before you know it you will have created a habit. If you have to, find a large training group to join and run him as if you are running a test (i.e. no collar, no heeling stick, etc.) air him like you would for a test, walk him to the line like you would for a test, wait in a holding blind, have judges, etc. Run the first series, run a second series, etc until you get the behavior and then you will be able to correct the dog for the actual behavior. I know it's a PITA to simulate the behavior, but focus on that (i.e. run the dog on the setup and don't worry about how he does, but focus on the line manners). Remote drop helps and I still do it with my dog every so often when training, I'll have him drop the bird after a retrieve when he is a few yards from the line, then send him for the next bird and pick up the dropped bird myself while e is retrieving the memory bird or next single. I don't really think all the "band-aids" work, you need to correct the behavior and modify it, band-aids eventually come off and there are only so many of them - up your standards at the line (which it sounds like you are, but still room for improvement). Best of luck.

 

[GG]

will the dog freeze with someone else running him? if it's a personal thing between you and the dog--you've really got a problem! The three reasons i know of that dogs freeze on birds are; posessiveness of the bird, resentment and nerves. once you have tried everything you can think of and you're at the end of your rope, you might try---choosing another command such as sit and apply maximum pressure with the collar. Does not matter whether he will sit or not; appy the force. this is a very difficult and complicated problem that you are probably going to need help on. Be sure you want to work on the problem with a pro, because it can get ugly.
good luck
GG

 

[Swampbilly]

I'd also recommend to stop running tests, this is what triggers the behavior and you can not correct for it and before you know it you will have created a habit. If you have to, find a large training group to join and run him as if you are running a test (i.e. no collar, no heeling stick, etc.) air him like you would for a test, walk him to the line like you would for a test, wait in a holding blind, have judges, etc. .

+1 Was slowly eluding to this FOM, but cha' beat me to it

Work on the possessiveness with other dogs around,.
Get the dog honoring...DROP means DROP everywhere, every situation, regardless.

 

[obx4me]

First, I am far from a pro trainer ! But I did stay at a holiday inn last night ....


My girl was mouthy with birds, crunching down on them and not wanting to give up the bird. I am sure my "training" created the issue.

Here is what I did to correct it and it really helped out! Note, my girl has been FF as a pup and knows "hold". I've been trying to teach proper/better mouthing of the bird (less mouthy and dropping into my hand on command). I sat her on the tailgate of my truck to work with her and control her. Using a real bird (smaller bird better - I used a quail) and wearing leather gloves, I would put the bird AND my gloved hand into her mouth and tell her hold. When I did this I would make sure to have a few fingers in her mouth.
At first She was careful / reluctant to hold as she did not want to bite down on my hand.

1. I would put the bird AND my hand in her mouth for a few seconds commanding "hold"
2. After a few seconds I would command "drop" and remove the bird and my hand from her mouth.

She never would crunch down on bird when my hand was in there too.

I would repeat the drill from the couch at home using her kong toy.

This worked very quickly at solving her heavy mouth problem. I continue to practice this every now and then.

 

[tpaschal30]

I have a question:
After teaching the dog to Remote DROP, will that same dog that was previously freezing, or being a little sticky with birds remotely DROP at a HT/FT afterwards ?

No, it shouldn't. And it is not a cure. It will haunt you(at least it does me), but remote drop does help, at least in my case. Another person running the dog is an idea. Mine has only done it with me. He has not done it so far with one of my training partners. When the birds get soggy seems to aid in bringing it on.

 

[GulfCoast]

I have dealt with "sticky" but never a hard "freeze." With a sticky dog, I thinks its something you can bury for a while, but never totally cure, since its a nervous reaction (at least in the ones I have dealt with).

 

[Swampbilly]

No, it shouldn't. And it is not a cure. It will haunt you(at least it does me), but remote drop does help, at least in my case. Another person running the dog is an idea. Mine has only done it with me. He has not done it so far with one of my training partners. When the birds get soggy seems to aid in bringing it on.

Hey thanx.
What I'm getting at moreso is, will the dog , when commanded to do so, (say off at a distance , but still close enough to have the affects of a HT), remotely DROP after being taught to do so in the training field..then afterwards on, or around the Test grounds.

 

[Elliott Labradors]

In the link below Jim mentions later adding his description to a "Remote Drop Drill". Does anyone know where that info could be found?

It started with my BLM about the same age. From what I have learned it happens to some of the real birdy dogs. Remote drop has helped us, but it will always be a work in progress for us. Here is a link that might help.

http://www.kwicklabs.com/RemoteDrop.htm


Thanks,

Wally
.

 

[tpaschal30]

Hey thanx.
What I'm getting at moreso is, will the dog , when commanded to do so, (say off at a distance , but still close enough to have the affects of a HT), remotely DROP after being taught to do so in the training field..then afterwards on, or around the Test grounds.

Sorry I'm not understanding. Are you asking will he not deliver to hand at a HT? If it is freezing it is not delivering to hand already. Sorry for my confusion.

 

[tpaschal30]

I’ve not found one. A friend that attended a Lardy seminar showed me. You front sit the dog. While making eye contact you sweep your arm across with the drop command( and collar pressure). Do not let him pick it back up and bring him to heel without the bird.

In the link below Jim mentions later adding his description to a "Remote Drop Drill". Does anyone know where that info could be found?

It started with my BLM about the same age. From what I have learned it happens to some of the real birdy dogs. Remote drop has helped us, but it will always be a work in progress for us. Here is a link that might help.

http://www.kwicklabs.com/RemoteDrop.htm


Thanks,

Wally
.

 

[Swampbilly]

Sorry I'm not understanding. Are you asking will he not deliver to hand at a HT? If it is freezing it is not delivering to hand already. Sorry for my confusion.

The internet is hard sometimes

Lets' take a dog that is getting sticky, and freezing on birds after a return back to the line,..

Now that same dog has been trained to a Remote DROP..

Now that he's been trained to do that in the training field, would that same dog do it successfully if it was exposed to a HT and the affects of it?
In other words, if the dog is trained to Remote DROP without the factors of a HT present, would the same dog be successful, (Remote DROP), with those factors present.

 

[T-Pines]

In the link below Jim mentions later adding his description to a "Remote Drop Drill". Does anyone know where that info could be found?

http://new.retrievertraining.net/fo...nnual-Review-quot&highlight=Remote+drop+drill