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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just starting hand signals with my lab he already knows force to the pile and remote sit and before i taught him remote sit he was a rocket off the line but now he goes for my hand and spins when sent back but he always goes back and he doesn't do it every time but he does it enough for me to want to try to fix it. Im only stopping him every 4th or 5th back and He doesn't do it on marks when i say his name to send him but Im sure its him anticipating a stop. Any ideas would be appreciated
 

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Try to run a bunch of freebies and when you see his head starting to turn like he's gonna pop,throw your hand up again and yell back. If that doesn't help try it the same way except when you yell back give him a nick
 

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You might go back to FTP and try remote sends a bunch. Put the dog in front of you a few yards, then send with a back cast.

I am still trying to fully understand where you are in your training program. Also, what does "he goes for my hand" mean? Is he trying to bite your hand?

In the program I follow, simple casting is taught before FTP. And FTP starts with building on the back casts learned in simple casting.

Are you following a specifice program?
 

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Welcome to the RTF. My pup began doing this and I went back and revisited Force to Pile. If done corectly he will drive to the pile until told to do otherwise. He is trying to out smart you;).
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
No he isn't trying to bite my hand its like a excited spin and my hands next to his head when i say back. I'm following the water dog and top dog program with Tony Hartnett
 

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You say that you are teaching him to handle. Is this the first time you have taught him to cast? Are you now on the "T"? I'm sorry for all the questions because I still don't know where you are in the training program. Does Tony Harnett call what you are doing something?
 

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I just did a search of my library and I have an old VHS version of Top Dog with Tony Hartnett. If you will tell me where you are I will look at the video and maybe I can give you a better opinion.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Ya this is the first time i taught him to cast and ya Im working on the t but mostly on back casts to 2nd base. Hes doing very well with remote sit and back casts the only problem im having is the popping and he doesn't do it where i remote sit him he does it right when i send him. I'm right in the middle of the video where hes handling the dog on land right before he does the field check having the dog go back with the bumber in his mouth.
 

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I'll look at the video tomorrow morning early but I think you have skipped some steps.
 

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How old is your dog?

Are you sending with your hand over his head or on the side of his head (a once popular way) ? One of the criticisms of sending with your hand at the side of the head accompanied with a little forward motion is that it is distracting. If you are using Water Dog by Wolters, I think that he sends with his hand by the side of the head. If that's the case, try placing your hand over his head.

The dogs that I see popping are ones that usually have been worked a lot on handling. Maybe relax it a bit?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I was sending him with my hand next to his head i started to send him with my hand over his head and he didn't do it as much ill ease up on the handling a bit and work on ftp some more and i think he will catch on that he only has to stop when i blow the whistle. He is barely a year and a half old and my first hunting dog.
 

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I had a pro trainer recently help me with the hand over or beside theory. For him the answer is neither. Sit mean more than just sit. Sit means sit up straight with good spinal alignment and the dog looking in the direction that you sat him. Not looking at you not looking around but focused and looking straight ahead. This is the theory...I did not start my obedience this way so it has been a tough transition for me and my dog but we are trying. The Idea is the dog does get focused on your hand either looking up or over. Just a thought I still haven't completely made that change but we are trying but I have seen his dogs run this way and he has proven this method.
 

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BTW I know it doesn't fix the problem you are having right now but it is something to think about.
 

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The bad news is that I couldn't get my vcr to work. It has been years since I have used it.
I believe what you are describing is a "spinner" not a "popper". You can read the below thread. I think the best advice is to go back to FTP, get close to the pile,say 10 yds. Do lots of remote sends, then start slipping in some side sends and gradually back up to about 35 yds. As you are backing up still do remote sends. Stopping in route to the pile should be taught in FTP.

Also, I would forget about the hand by the side business. Put your hand over his head. Remember the hand is evidently only a confirmation that he is looking in the right direction and the correct alignment is done with the feet and body.

Also, I would not "teach" casting on the "T". Go to a different location and teach simple casting. This used to be called baseball.

In the bigger picture there are more better training programs availabe now than the ones you are using. They are:
Total Retriever Training 2 edition by Mike Lardy
Smart Works by Evan Graham
Fowl Dogs by Rick S.

I use TRT 2 but Fowl Dogs is probably the least expensive but Smart Works is probably best for the first time trainer.


http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=38132&highlight=spinner
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Thanks for the info your right hes a spinner not a popper never even heard of it but after reading that thread that's what he doing. I am starting to think it has a lot to do with the hand cause i can almost tell when hes going to do it hes not focused 100% and when hes focused he doesn't do it . That's a good idea to take him to a new location to.
 

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Thanks for the info your right hes a spinner not a popper never even heard of it but after reading that thread that's what he doing. I am starting to think it has a lot to do with the hand cause i can almost tell when hes going to do it hes not focused 100% and when hes focused he doesn't do it . That's a good idea to take him to a new location to.
The best idea I read is to take a look at a modern program (TRM, FD, SW)before you get to far.

Your hand in general is not the cause of the spin IMO. Your particular use of the hand may be a factor. Most of the best trainers and handlers in the country use a hand down before sending. If the hand caused dogs to spin, they wouldn't use it. The hand isn't used to line the dog up, the dog is aligned before the hand goes down. So having the hand down beside the dog's head or in front of the dogs head may distract the dog. propper position for the hand is above and forward of the dog's head so that it is visable to the dog but not so low as to distract.

Some dogs spin, some pop, some do other things. This is why you do these basics such as ftp, so that you can identify and fix issues before moving on.
 

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Spinning is usually from too much pressure or confusion or a combination of both. My advice is get on a more sequential program and start over so the dog understands what is being asked of him. Most of us here do sequential programs so it is difficult to say where you went wrong or what was skipped because we can't see your dog but the hand is probably not the root cause.
 

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Seek a professional trainer with experience.
This is something that needs to be seen and addressed rather than written about.
In my opinion "IF" the dog was forced to a pile and understands it as you say he does than something happened.
Relying on internet advise may not help you.
Sue
 

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When I was talking about the hand I said "evidently" and meant "eventually".
 

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I agree with Sue. Where are you located? If known maybe someone can recommend a nearby trainer.
 
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