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Banx - Boykin Spaniel
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Discussion Starter #41
Jim,

Thanks for the input on doubles! Not even looking to remotely try anything like that again for a while. I definitely need to build up to it while I learn along the way. Learned that the hard way already. ;) Daisy looks like a heck of a dog!
 

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Banx - Boykin Spaniel
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Discussion Starter #42
Good evening everyone, just made another video for Banx.
Nothing interesting has changed in terms of training outside for obedience. He is slowly getting better every day. I decided to highlight the fact that I started collar conditioning! Just taking this at my own pace and learning tons! Appreciate all your guy's help and input. I wouldn't even be close to this point if it wasn't for all of your support!

Jordan
 

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Good evening everyone, just made another video for Banx.
Nothing interesting has changed in terms of training outside for obedience. He is slowly getting better every day. I decided to highlight the fact that I started collar conditioning! Just taking this at my own pace and learning tons! Appreciate all your guy's help and input. I wouldn't even be close to this point if it wasn't for all of your support!
Jordan


Doin great Jordan! Nice job on building the bed too. Seems you are a multi talented guy.
I do not intend to stir controversy with my next comment, it is just my opinion. Hmmm trying to think of how to put this without sounding like a butt head cuz in print if I speak my my mind in the way I would express myself in person it wouldnt go well. Here goes, I very much dislike using treats for dog training. Yes you are getting great results but to me those results are misguided. When I am teaching a dog obedience I like the dog completely tuned to me as a whole and I dislike the dog staring up at me and specifically my hand looking for the treat. I know people that do OB trials like the dog looking up at them. I like the dog to be honed in on me and my whole body language without having to stare at me. Some might argue that focus on the hands would be good further down the line when teaching handling but they have no problem learning the later. By that time the bumper is the treat. I simply dont think treats are necessary and again to me training with treats is misguiding focus. I work hard from the day I bring a pup home to become that pups whole world. I am mother, I am their treat, bumpers and retrieving are their treat even OB training is a treat. I am the one that feeds them so they look to me for that but it is the only time I use food for a reward. Making training fun and exciting is all the treat a dog needs.

Now with this guy it's another story you would get nowhere with out using treats. I even use a clicker. Birds are very smart but have a whole different mentality than a dog.


85454
 

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You and Banx are doing great!

I respectively disagree with Steve on training obedience with treats. I primarily train for competitive obedience trials. OB is not intrinsically rewarding, like retrieving is for a retriever. It's difficult to get a dog to keep trying to get those straight fronts and finishes (boooorrrrring) without treats. My current boy is trained for OB about 80% of the time, with lots of treats and toy chasing, and major emphasis on watching me all the time.

Hunt training? No interest in treats or looking at me and I don't ask him to. When we walk to a mat, he is scanning the area ahead for the birds. He is most definitely not looking at me or my hands.

More convincingly, perhaps, Connie Cleveland, who has about 7 million times more credibility than I do when it comes training either OB or field, uses treats for OB.
 

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You and Banx are doing great!

I respectively disagree with Steve on training obedience with treats. I primarily train for competitive obedience trials. OB is not intrinsically rewarding, like retrieving is for a retriever. It's difficult to get a dog to keep trying to get those straight fronts and finishes (boooorrrrring) without treats. My current boy is trained for OB about 80% of the time, with lots of treats and toy chasing, and major emphasis on watching me all the time.

Hunt training? No interest in treats or looking at me and I don't ask him to. When we walk to a mat, he is scanning the area ahead for the birds. He is most definitely not looking at me or my hands.

More convincingly, perhaps, Connie Cleveland, who has about 7 million times more credibility than I do when it comes training either OB or field, uses treats for OB.
Everyone sees the world through their own experiences and realities.

All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.

A retrieve for a well-bred retriever (And for a majority of the pitbulls that I've met!) is like CANDY.

There are many ways to trip the trigger of a dog. The trick is to read the dog and truly understand what it wants, what you the human wants, and how to connect the dots.

Be fair, be consistent, be patient... the sky's the limit.

I've had the good fortune to throw marks for Bridget Carlson before and watch her handle a dog live. She knows a bit about training....

Chris
 

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Doin great Jordan! Nice job on building the bed too. Seems you are a multi talented guy.
I do not intend to stir controversy with my next comment, it is just my opinion. Hmmm trying to think of how to put this without sounding like a butt head cuz in print if I speak my my mind in the way I would express myself in person it wouldnt go well. Here goes, I very much dislike using treats for dog training. Yes you are getting great results but to me those results are misguided. When I am teaching a dog obedience I like the dog completely tuned to me as a whole and I dislike the dog staring up at me and specifically my hand looking for the treat. I know people that do OB trials like the dog looking up at them. I like the dog to be honed in on me and my whole body language without having to stare at me. Some might argue that focus on the hands would be good further down the line when teaching handling but they have no problem learning the later. By that time the bumper is the treat. I simply dont think treats are necessary and again to me training with treats is misguiding focus. I work hard from the day I bring a pup home to become that pups whole world. I am mother, I am their treat, bumpers and retrieving are their treat even OB training is a treat. I am the one that feeds them so they look to me for that but it is the only time I use food for a reward. Making training fun and exciting is all the treat a dog needs.

Now with this guy it's another story you would get nowhere with out using treats. I even use a clicker. Birds are very smart but have a whole different mentality than a dog.


View attachment 85454
Steve, I think the beauty of what your retrievers get is pretty darn early exposure to the awesomeness of the retrieve.

I'm not much of a treat guy either. But if I didn't have the endorphine rush that I condition my dogs to get by obeying to get that retrieve (or the one that the smartphone user gets for receiving a like) I'd have to find another pay... A treat for a hungry dog is a pretty good motivator in boring old obedience.

Nowadays I'm not a fan of "formal obedience" that starts at any one day. I like the puppy to think that every day is just like the one before, and I'm tricking the puppy into advancing to the next step. There is no sudden day where, for example: Today is the day we have to be steady. But I think BoykinBanx is likely doing his best to cover the music of Evan Graham - and I think for a new musician, covering an older musician note-for-note is better than combining pieces from various sources before having enough experience to know how all the pieces from different players fit together.

Chris
 

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Steve, I think the beauty of what your retrievers get is pretty darn early exposure to the awesomeness of the retrieve.

I'm not much of a treat guy either. But if I didn't have the endorphine rush that I condition my dogs to get by obeying to get that retrieve (or the one that the smartphone user gets for receiving a like) I'd have to find another pay... A treat for a hungry dog is a pretty good motivator in boring old obedience.

Nowadays I'm not a fan of "formal obedience" that starts at any one day. I like the puppy to think that every day is just like the one before, and I'm tricking the puppy into advancing to the next step. There is no sudden day where, for example: Today is the day we have to be steady. But I think BoykinBanx is likely doing his best to cover the music of Evan Graham - and I think for a new musician, covering an older musician note-for-note is better than combining pieces from various sources before having enough experience to know how all the pieces from different players fit together.

Chris



Mr Atkinson ranks right up there with Mr Bora on the not as dumb as he looks scale!! 😜 😜 😉 :ROFLMAO:
 

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You and Banx are doing great!

I respectively disagree with Steve on training obedience with treats. I primarily train for competitive obedience trials. OB is not intrinsically rewarding, like retrieving is for a retriever. It's difficult to get a dog to keep trying to get those straight fronts and finishes (boooorrrrring) without treats. My current boy is trained for OB about 80% of the time, with lots of treats and toy chasing, and major emphasis on watching me all the time.

Hunt training? No interest in treats or looking at me and I don't ask him to. When we walk to a mat, he is scanning the area ahead for the birds. He is most definitely not looking at me or my hands.

More convincingly, perhaps, Connie Cleveland, who has about 7 million times more credibility than I do when it comes training either OB or field, uses treats for OB.




Completely understand. Cannot argue with success especially from the likes of Connie Cleveland but I would be willing to bet she could do it without treats. For me using treats is kinda like two sided heeling, just not for me.
I will argue the point that obedience is "booooorrring". The above link is my dog Bill. Watch his tail. You cannot tell me this dog is bored, he is enjoying what he is doing. I have not done obedience trials and Bill in this video may or may not hold up to OB trial standards I have no idea what those standards are but I firmly believe I could easily train for OB trials without treats. I guess you could say treats are just like any other tool so why not use it. I just cannot wrap my head around it. I prefer building a relationship and team work and plain ol' communication between me and my dog. With that being said TO ME and that's just me but if I were using treats the dog would be performing for the wrong reason.
Can you post a video of you doing OB trial training. I seriously would be interested to see what those standards are.
 

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Watch your phone if you want to see ugly.
Speakin' of - somebody called me about a job reference for one "Billy O." O'Brien (NOT the generic "bill ob" in the upper left-hand corner of Steve Shaver's video), and I was resolute in deferring to your analytical graces.

Also, it recently occurred to me that young George might be the namesake of the other Pa brother and was fit with said handle as reflects your intercollegiate pigskin loyalty. (We rtf CFB threaders are ever reminded of those days when - every time upon commenting on the current season - the "Recommended Reading" panel inevitably provides as a first option "Put Chris A. on suicide watch" or something similar that betides, er, sorry that betokens something gone awry in the Nittany Valley).

And on a serious or at least semi-serious note, always happy to see you "reinvested" in rtf with your training counsel.

MG
 
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